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Minor ground fall off Little Thor; Dec Crag


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-May-2008
7:04:36 PM

Thanks for sharing your experience rhinckle, and I trust you fully recover soon.

Re mallions. They are not foolproof. I have experienced them coming undone, and these days if I use one at all I tend to tighten them with pliers.
I prefer to use doubled opposed locking karabiners for attaching my primary belay device while solo aiding. I still use backup knots with this setup.

On 10/05/2008 hipster wrote:
>Aid climbing results in way more placements that are ALL weighted compared
>to free climbing, even though they aren't shock loaded.
(snip)
>Over time aiding, even just on gear, will result in
>way more impact on a route IMHO.

Last time I used it I again noticed that my aluminium (etc) passive pro, was softer than the rock.

Yes every placement is weighted in aid, but the gouges on my gear testify that the gear is what is being impacted upon, and not the route while 'clean aiding'.

On 8/05/2008 chalkischeap wrote:
>Find an aid partner or do something else – anything but solo aiding.

Imo it is almost as safe as freeclimbing with a partner depending on the route chosen and the gear and techniques used.

rhinckle wrote 08/05/08;
>it's wierd shit aiding, still seeing if it is worthwhile addition to my possibilities. >seems harder than climbing in a wierd way. >would much rather climb little thor the natural way, and didn't have a partner on that day.

Yes it is weird ... ~> until the climbing is beyond your freeclimbing ability, at which stage it comes into its own.


Richard

10-May-2008
9:10:24 PM

what routes at araps would one reccomend as being suitable for someone starting out aidclimbing?


muki

11-May-2008
7:01:22 PM

procol harem, or on the other side the big crack, infact most of the climbs on castle crag were done in
one weekend of aid climbing feeding frenzy, check it out. BP

Paul

11-May-2008
7:30:32 PM

On 6/05/2008 bomber pro wrote:
>On 6/05/2008 belayslave wrote:
>>Best suggestion i can make is ditch a karabiner all together, use
>>a Maillon Rapide instead. A 10mm
>>oval or D-shape would be the go. tighten just past finger tight with
>>your handy leatherman and you'll
>>(never) rarely have any issues with it coming undone.
>
>This is exactly what should have been used! a regular carabiner will turn
>and in the event of a fall will
>be cross loaded (the weakest possible orientation for a normal aluminium
>biner)
>Only ever use a steel Malion for this type of activity!
>They have a guaranteed rating no matter what orientation they have.

About a month ago I bought a 10mm steel malion for this exact purpose. Today while procrastinating study I started sorting out my boxes of climbing gear. On closer inspection I found that one of my malions had ratings on it for directional loading and cross loading, 25 and 10kn respectively. I had always been under the impression that malions were not weakened when cross loaded. none of my other malions are rated like this, could this be a missprint on the malion?


Organ Pipe

12-May-2008
5:08:55 AM

On 10/05/2008 Richard wrote:
>what routes at araps would one reccomend as being suitable for someone
>starting out aidclimbing?

On 11/05/2008 bomber pro wrote:
>procol harem

I'm gonna add this to my list. That'd be a sweet line to be dangling from!

Richard, my first aid at Araps was on Orestes, and I loved it!
I don't have alot of aid experience at Araps, but I thought this was a great one because it'll swallow trad pro at least every 30cm all the way up to the roof, it alows for line of sight communication between you and your belayer it's entire length (assuming you're not beginning with solo aid). It'll alow you to play / practice with all your gear (as in the awesome crack will swallow nuts, hexes, and cams), and the view is stunning!


rhinckle

12-May-2008
8:52:51 AM

On 8/05/2008 chalkischeap wrote:
>Seriously man, give up solo aiding before you kill yourself.
>
>Tweaking your present system may not save you next time you have a “learning
>experience”.

>Find an aid partner or do something else – anything but solo aiding.
>
>(not having a go at you but reading this thread is like watching someone
>at the crag making dangerous mistakes – sometimes you have to say something)

appreciate your concern chalkie.

my first experience of solo roped leading was in '96. organ pipes. fun.

in more recent years i have been playing with 'boulderaiding'.

the next logical step was to combine the two.

little thor was the first time since '96 that i've had an ohmigod, waker upper experience.
it's only something i do when there are no other alternatives, and something i take on with awareness of the seriousnes of the undertaking.

my thoughts on the matter are to limit myself to solo toprope aid on crap climbs, with shunt and prussic backup to allow myself to make the inevitable mistakes and become more familiar with the elaborate gear handling techniques involved in the process.

if i have a partner, i would rather climb than aid.

BTW, i work in aged care and while i don't want to do it just yet, i know how i would prefer to die.


harold

12-May-2008
11:45:27 AM

The DMM belay master (screwgate with the plastic clip that stops crossloading/unscrewing) is another alternative to a mallion. As you found out a singe screwgate without back up is not a great idea.
Rhincle, you mentioned holding a keeper chord for the gri gri in your teeth in your earlier description. Whats up with that? Sounds seriously weird/bad idea!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

12-May-2008
12:16:25 PM

On 12/05/2008 harold wrote:
>Rhincle, you mentioned holding a keeper chord for the gri gri in your
>teeth in your earlier description. Whats up with that? Sounds seriously
>weird/bad idea!

& earlier On 8/05/2008 rhinckle wrote:
>just out of interest, when solo leading with grigri i use an 11m rope,
>usually in a day pack, that feeds down through the gri gri with the flap
>filed off and a small hole drilled to take a loop of cord that i hold in
>my teeth. This maintins the orientation of the grigri for best rope feed
>while climbing, but is a safety feature if i happen to fall upside down.
>when grigri will still put itself in best position (provided i open my
>mouth).
>It has always worked in the past. However try my best not to fall and
>usually succeed.
>

I also thought this unusual harold, but was waiting for others more knowledgeable / familiar with gri gris, to pick up on it and comment.

Different thingy but similar flavour ...
I do know from many years ago that there were documented cases of people using a jumar as a backup for abseiling. They were in the habit of having it tethered to their harness with a leash and abseiling one handed while holding the jaw open on the jumar with their other hand to enable it to slide freely. The thought process was that if anything happened while abseiling they need only release the jumar jaw to cause it to self arrest their mishap.
The trouble was that more than one person abseiled into the deck at considerable speed due to ‘freezing’ (clutching in fear?), the open-jaw jumar and not releasing it as intended.
A natural reaction perhaps but the opposite of a ‘thinking’ reaction, with resultant dire consequences …

Having a loop held by ones teeth, intended to release in certain circumstances sounds similar to the above scenario in courting mishap to me, though I also know that some individuals ‘train’ their reactions to counter their natural instinct in times of crisis to good effect.


muki

12-May-2008
9:09:43 PM

On 11/05/2008 Paul wrote:

> On closer inspection I found that one of my malions had ratings on
>it for directional loading and cross loading, 25 and 10kn respectively.
>I had always been under the impression that malions were not weakened when
>cross loaded. none of my other malions are rated like this, could this
>be a missprint on the malion?

Mine have the same stamp, but are actually very strong, with most steel gear the ratings are working
load limit, times this by five and you have the breaking or failure point, that means that 25kn is
actually not its failure point, but in fact 125 kn and 50 kn is the failure point, but that is all arbitrary
when considering that when the human body is subjected to shock loads (without dynamic rope
involved) a load that would kill you is very low, 6 to 8 kn would definitely do it!
but the steel malions are regarded by all I.R.A.T.A standards to be multiple orientation loading
atachment points for industrial safety when working at heights. BP


muki

12-May-2008
9:12:42 PM

On 12/05/2008 harold wrote:
>The DMM belay master (screwgate with the plastic clip that stops crossloading/unscrewing)
>is another alternative to a mallion. As you found out a singe screwgate
>without back up is not a great idea.
>Rhincle, you mentioned holding a keeper chord for the gri gri in your
>teeth in your earlier description. Whats up with that? Sounds seriously
>weird/bad idea!

Can't agree more with this statement!
as I have mentioned see the article in bigwalls dot net it will explain all the technical aspects of using
the system safely.


Capt_mulch

13-May-2008
11:33:25 AM

>Rhincle, you mentioned holding a keeper chord for the gri gri in your
>teeth in your earlier description. Whats up with that? Sounds seriously
>weird/bad idea!

Some shock cord around your neck is a better idea.

Paul

13-May-2008
1:51:46 PM


rhinckle

13-May-2008
1:54:06 PM

On 13/05/2008 Capt_mulch wrote:
>>Rhincle, you mentioned holding a keeper chord for the gri gri in your
>>teeth in your earlier description. Whats up with that? Sounds seriously
>>weird/bad idea!
>
>Some shock cord around your neck is a better idea.

not if you fall upside down.

2 possibilities,

1) IF the gri gri bites, the stress will be on your neck (as opposed to maybe losing a tooth if you clench and i'm more likely to scream "faaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrkkkk!!!" )

2) the gri gri is likely NOT to work if held upside down
(ie if you make a chest harness set up, it will stop the grigri from working if you happen to be upside down)

i know that it sounds like a wierd idea, but i put a lot of thought and experimentation into this particular adaption. it works.


muki

13-May-2008
8:47:14 PM

On 13/05/2008 rhinckle wrote:

>not if you fall upside down.
>2) the gri gri is likely NOT to work if held upside down
>(ie if you make a chest harness set up, it will stop the grigri from working
>if you happen to be upside down)

>i know that it sounds like a wierd idea, but i put a lot of thought and
>experimentation into this particular adaption. it works.

The gri gri works just fine upside down, I know because I have taken many roof falls rope soloing on
this set up, mine uses a chest harness, this is just to hold the unit upright, as the load comes onto the
sit harness, the gri gri works in any orientation except sideways, witch is why I have a chest harness
on it (this is just a meter long circular sling that connects to the keeper string on the unit) I have not
just "put a lot of thought into it" I have tested it in all types of situations with real leader falls!
if you insist on running this equipment in this fashion, then please do it elsewhere other than the
Arapiles area, as I don't want to have to scrape what's left of you into a bag as a member of the ARG!!

There are 34 messages in this topic.