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Arapiles - Fatalities

NEVERCLIMBED32

2-Aug-2005
3:48:27 PM

Ghastly buisness this.........and heresay is a wonderful thing. No point as they say letting the truth get in the way of a good storey.

Seriously though, I think its really important for there to be a comprehensive record and analysis of climbing accidents. Anyone of you who has read copies of 'Accidents in North American Mountaineering' will atest to this. Learning from other peoples misteaks can be a real life saver givern that the consequence of acting in ignorance or beyond ones ability can be death.
How did that hanger come off the bolt ?
How did Micks rope get cut ? Did he pull a block and chop it ? Poor rope management ? Or does he keep his rope in the boot of the car where that battery leaked acid ? ( No offence mate, I just think its important to know. )

I'm aware of incidences at other locations as well. Any stats on these.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

2-Aug-2005
3:52:46 PM

What cut the rope?
If a swinging fall over a sharp edge it implies gear held above somewhere ?

The climb sounds more like the Ugly part of GB&U, especially re WM comments above re outward forces on lower gear.

-----------------------
[edit]
Yeah, re the cut rope, NC32 is quicker on the typo-finger than me.

>Any stats on these.
Forums on sites such as this are no doubt of great help in educating the rest of us, as well as perhaps making it easier to compile stats for the researchers.
As an example Qurank has some excellent (though at times morbid) info & post analysis of accos.


nmonteith

2-Aug-2005
4:30:42 PM

As stated earlier - the VCC has an extensive Australian accident register that Ian Sedgman has edited. It
lists 295 climbing accidents between 1955 and 2004. I am sure he is still keeping tabs on the current
accidents. Download it here:
http://www.vicclimb.org.au/media/documents/general/Accidents.pdf

2-Aug-2005
10:25:43 PM

gfdonc: "If you fall from the crux, sever a rope, spear into the ground and sustain major injuries (as Michael Hampton once did), you might wish to take away a star" (Mentz Tempest select p153)

Neil: the crux is higher than 20m off the deck - closer to 30m.

M8: it's a great route!

NEVERCLIMBED32

4-Aug-2005
4:55:37 PM

Thanks Neil. And especially to Ian Sedgman the compiling this stuff. It is however a statistical analysis of data that Ian won't release specifics of (see page 15 of his document). An analysis of individual incidents would prove more of an insight into how accidents happen. Check out the tread "Dumbest thing you have ever seen" and you will see what I mean. Suprisingly DT doesn't list any fatals (yet). Or to many confessions of what folks have done themselves. Having said that I better better go and make a confession myself.

kieranl

4-Aug-2005
8:47:48 PM

The fatal accident on GBU was very similar to Mick Hampton's accident, both pulling runners on the crux section and being pulled up by pieces well below the crux.
The only real difference is the outcome. The british lad hit his head and Mick didn't which is just a matter of luck on a long fall onto a slab.
The nature of these is very similar to one fatal and one serious accident on D Minor both pulling runners on the top overhang, lower runners pulled out by directional forces and slamming into the lower slabs.
You really have to be careful on climbs that change direction or get steeper just as the climbing gets harder.
The bolts on Marmot's were tiny little things with loose nuts and no hangers. They were too small for a bolt plate to be secure so were usually clipped with wires. They were really cruddy and should never have been trusted but people do blindly trust fixed gear.


Richard

5-Aug-2005
1:13:50 PM

>one fatal and one serious accident
>on D Minor both pulling runners on the top overhang,

I have only done the climb once, but thought that top crack gave a pretty bomber placement. And there is always the chance to rest and inspect after placing it, if you are concerned about how solid the piece is. Do you know both these people placed gear there?

>Thanks Neil. And especially to Ian Sedgman the compiling this stuff.
>It is however a statistical analysis of data that Ian won't
>release specifics of (see page 15 of his document). An analysis of
>individual incidents would prove more of an insight into
>how accidents happen

Tha't s quite a good observation, knwing more details about each accidnet would give better insight. Unfortuantely some of the deatils have been given in confidence, which is why Iain won't release them.

Maybe we should have a public accident register so direct lessons can be learnt? The challenge is to be able to verify the info, especially when people hear conflicting stories.


nmonteith

5-Aug-2005
2:36:42 PM

On 5/08/2005 Richard wrote:
>Maybe we should have a public accident register so direct lessons can
>be learnt? The challenge is to be able to verify the info, especially when
>people hear conflicting stories.

You are using a public accident registor right now Richard! People have verified several accidents on this
topic already.

kieranl

5-Aug-2005
7:31:06 PM

I believe that both accidents I referred to pulled runners (probably a single runner in each case) from the top overhang. I do not know whether lower runners were lifted out by directional forces or were not there to begin with.
Protection on the top overhang on D-Minor is excellent and there is plenty of time to place it but anyone can make a mistake and novices in particular can be poor judges of gear.
I have seen one novice fall from the top overhang, pull the single piece of gear there and stop on the ledge between the two overhangs two metres above their only other piece after the belay. It was pure luck that he stayed on the ledge and didn't go for the big one.
I guess the reason it has seen such serious accidents is that it is very popular and sees a lot of novices leading it and it is hard enough that a reasonable number fall off and sometimes their gear pulls.


sabu

5-Aug-2005
10:27:26 PM

so moral of this story is place more than one runner on D minors top overhang, and account for directional forces on runners below?!


Richard

6-Aug-2005
8:59:42 PM

On 5/08/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>You are using a public accident registor right now Richard! People have
>verified several accidents on this
>topic already.

Yeah, but the info is dispearsed amoungst many posts. What I mean is a database which clearly identifies who,where, when, activity being done at the time of the accident (ie leading, soloing, unroped approach, abseiling, belaying), experince level, if / what type of gear or pro failure occured, and what the cdlimber might have done to avoid the accident.

If this info was available, the question at the start of this topic would not have been asked..

Cheers

NEVERCLIMBED32

8-Aug-2005
3:05:43 PM

On 6/08/2005 Richard wrote:

>If this info was available, the question at the start of this topic would
>not have been asked..
>
>Cheers

Hey is that what I said ?................. or is that what I meant?
Accident incident reports should be freely available and readily accessable to all interested parties.
On the subject of not divesting details of incidences which have been told in confidence. This is total crap. The idea of accident reports is to learn by other peoples misteaks. If this means humiliation of those involved (who I,m assuming should know better ? ) then so be it. In any case it is the processes behind the incident which are important to know , not who was involved.


albion

8-Aug-2005
3:21:13 PM

I can attest to the top crack being a bomber placement. I managed to fall off that overhang on my first attempt and the piece (4 or 5, can't remember) held my 90kg without any trouble.

gfdonc

8-Aug-2005
3:27:48 PM

At the risk of stating the obvious for many of you, a common error for inexperienced leaders is not to extend runners. 'Cos we all like to clip things above our heads to minimise the fall distance and provide greater apparent security.

What happens in practice is that, as you climb past, there could be an outward pull on the gear if the runner is on a sling+krab with less than an arm's length.

Especially on overhangs.

gfdonc

8-Nov-2006
5:33:04 PM

(bump) This is the thread I was looking for ..

AntiPrincess

19-Nov-2006
6:03:53 PM

On 8/08/2005 gfdonc wrote:
>At the risk of stating the obvious for many of you, a common error for
>inexperienced leaders is not to extend runners.

That's true in many cases, but I've also witnessed the opposite. A friend of mine sprained her ankle falling
off the crux of D minor because she'd extended a runner out too far, and consequently she hit the ledge
when she fell off.

There are 36 messages in this topic.