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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

Author
Arapiles Rescue Methods on ABC News
kieranl
17-Nov-2017
1:16:30 PM
ABC report on rescue stuation at Arapiles
johny
18-Nov-2017
5:31:25 AM
"What was done on that rescue was outside of the safety parameters of any emergency services framework, then or now." Do you have any frame of reference to justify this statement? Are you referring to Australian services or everywhere?

If this rescue fell outside the framework one would hope your statement was condemning the framework, not the rescue considering the methods used saved the victim's life and put the rescuer at relative minimal risk.

robbie
19-Nov-2017
8:56:40 AM
Are yes our old nemesis of, bureaucracy. As they say in war, "we fight with and for our comrades, nothing else." Emotional. Yes, but real. On going forward, will there be more injuries and deaths in the theater of climbing? We know the answer to that. The $64 question is when and where? The answer? Crystal ball stuff. Moving along. All I know is, that the talent and energy is there to learn and evolve, "and I won't say better," appropriate systems and procedures, in order to meet the needs of the situation as it arises. All the best. Robbie.
johny
19-Nov-2017
2:52:35 PM
"Rescue protocols at Australia's top rock climbing destination are dangerous, claim rock climbers" This is the title of the ABC story. Not what you named the topic as. I think it speaks volumes.
kieranl
19-Nov-2017
6:17:44 PM
On 19-Nov-2017 johny wrote:
>"Rescue protocols at Australia's top rock climbing destination are dangerous,
>claim rock climbers" This is the title of the ABC story. Not what you
>named the topic as. I think it speaks volumes.

?? This is bizarre stuff. The first 3 words are the first three words of the link. No more no less. I shared the link here and on Facebook as soon as I'd read it. I made no comment on it, didn't try to put my spin on it. If I have an agenda it was to make sure people were aware of it. What volumes does this say?

I was going to respond to Johnny's original comment until I saw this post but no more.
kieranl
19-Nov-2017
6:37:46 PM
On 17-Nov-2017 Dave J wrote:
>thoughts?....keiran?, ajfclark?
>
>I would tend to agree that bureaucracy has dulled/crippled was used to
>be a pretty effective system.
>
>http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-17/mount-arapiles-rescue-methods-criticised/9158772?WT
>ac=infocus_centralvic

Hi Dave,

I'm happy to talk to anyone about the issues, though I don't claim to have answers. But I have decided to not respond further on the web.

regards

Kieran
patto
19-Nov-2017
7:23:30 PM
Thanks to Kieran and to all the members former and present of ARG. I think this is a pretty important topic and it deserves broader discussion.

Like I've said I'm just a fly on the wall here. But after direct and indirect observations of many rescues at Arapiles it does seem that bureaucratic procedure is an impediment to effective and appropriate rescue.

In general I have more faith in prompt help from ARG and dirtbag climbers than calling 000. In some cases promptness can mean life or death.

Answers? Hard to fight a behemoth of bureaucracy....
rightarmbad
20-Nov-2017
6:13:50 AM
There is a huge difference between telling somebody in your employ to do something that threatens their life than a climber taking it upon themselves to help.

No employer will unduly risk the life of a rescuer or multiple rescuers to save a victim outside of established best safe practices.
Anything goes wrong they will be sued to death and insurance may well just wash their hands.

Now that every organisation also needs to have insurance, then even if volunteer, same rules apply.
There really is no way around it.
patto
20-Nov-2017
12:34:36 PM
Plenty of other countries have still manage effective SAR in FAR FAR more difficult and dangerous terrain.
Dave J
20-Nov-2017
1:56:55 PM
On 19-Nov-2017 kieranl wrote:
>Hi Dave,
>I'm happy to talk to anyone about the issues, though I don't claim to
>have answers. But I have decided to not respond further on the web.

fair enough, Ill look forward to that at some point.

I know you've a lot more invested in ARG than I ever have. From my perspective I see layer of beauracy being imposed on something that was streamlined and efficient to the point they are no longer worth pursuing (I don't think ARG is quite there yet)...I can make comparisons with other aspects of my life arts, theatre etc where its a lot harder to do good things than it was a decade ago to the point that you wonder why you bother. Australia does seem to be following in america s footsteps down a path of insurance and litigation...NZ seems to have a much healthier attitude to these things.

Hats off to anyone whos contributed to ARG over the years though it has been a great thing for the mount and I hope there's a way forward for it somehow.

As far as the article, I know the ABC were looking to unearth an arapiles controversy. I sent them over to see noddy to talk about how, in spite of years of indoctrination, his own child has taken to using chalk when they climb....Noddy obviously had other ideas about what might make a good article. Hopefully some good comes of it.
johny
20-Nov-2017
2:03:23 PM
On 19-Nov-2017 kieranl wrote:
>On 17-Nov-2017 Dave J wrote:
>>thoughts?....keiran?, ajfclark?
>>
>>I would tend to agree that bureaucracy has dulled/crippled was used to
>>be a pretty effective system.
>>
>>http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-17/mount-arapiles-rescue-methods-criticised/9158772?W
>
>>ac=infocus_centralvic
>
>Hi Dave,
>
>I'm happy to talk to anyone about the issues, though I don't claim to
>have answers. But I have decided to not respond further on the web.
>
>regards
>
>Kieran

I find it very strange but somehow not surprising that you would post this article and simultaneously refuse to discuss your part in all of it.

You post a controversial article in which you are one of the quoted experts. You get vague criticism and then use this as an excuse to avoid any online discussion. It really makes me wonder about your objectivity.

It is strange that you do not try and defend your position because I think many people who only had the article to go by would condemn the current rescue strategy.

Dave J
20-Nov-2017
6:24:57 PM
On 20-Nov-2017 johny wrote:

>It is strange that you do not try and defend your position because I think
>many people who only had the article to go by would condemn the current
>rescue strategy.
>
I won't speak for kieran but I don't think he proposed the shift from the old system to the new one...he is just one of a small handful who haven't walked away because of the gradual change. Maybe because of what it was, maybe to and try and slow the slide, maybe because he cant see a viable alternative and there still needs to be a few competent people in the group for there to be any chance of saving people at the mount.

We both know most of the people who eventually walked away in frustration but a lot of them stuck it out for a long time first. Its not something that Id currently want to be a part of but I can certainly respect the patience and commitment of those few who are still sticking it out.

Gnaguts
20-Nov-2017
7:37:57 PM
On 20-Nov-2017 Dave J wrote:
>(more) the shift from
>the old system to the new one...he is just one of a small handful who haven't
>walked away because of the gradual change. Maybe because of what it was,
>maybe to and try and slow the slide, maybe because he cant see a viable
>alternative and there still needs to be a few competent people in the group
>for there to be any chance of saving people at the mount.
>
>(more)
1st off , hats off to ARG for excellent service over the years, and may they not Rest In Peace!

gov is good at trying on the one size fits all approach an that hand slips neatly in the glove of liturdation chasing numbers game by simple rules like 80% benefits for 20% work , ohs, certifying etc.
gov knows the system could be better but individualising subsystems is rare due cost , time and general gov apathy.

Our trouble is that for them to wake up, truly consult local knowledge and experience and work to support it, is gunna take a casualty to be the sacrificial victim instigating a gov official enquiry.

In spite of bureaucracy , may there always be heroes.

Another slippery slope? Where’s Wendy an her common sense to sort it out for us?
One Day Hero
21-Nov-2017
10:07:01 AM
On 20-Nov-2017 Dave J wrote:
>As far as the article, I know the ABC were looking to unearth an arapiles
>controversy. I sent them over to see noddy to talk about how, in spite
>of years of indoctrination, his own child has taken to using chalk when
>they climb....

This is a story which needs to be told. Please make a goatfest film.
One Day Hero
21-Nov-2017
11:29:19 AM
On 20-Nov-2017 johny wrote:
>It is strange that you do not try and defend your position because I think
>many people who only had the article to go by would condemn the current
>rescue strategy.

What's anyone supposed to do, CJ?
Clearly there's a market failure, and the best solution would be for the government to step in and insure skilled local rescue groups. That will probably never happen, but if it does, it'll be through slow boring negotiations done by people like Kieran.

In the short term, how about forming an unsueable volunteer rescue group, comprised of people with no material assets?

Eduardo Slabofvic
21-Nov-2017
12:26:50 PM
The article misses the real reason why people are not joining the ARG

There are 16 messages in this topic.

 

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