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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 63
Author
Ground Fall Last night Hardrock CBD

Sabu
1/03/2014
10:22:22 AM
On 28/02/2014 rock weasel wrote:
>I am surprised by the nonchalance of many of the lead climbers at Hardrock,
>especially in relation to securing the belayer to the ground.

I agree with the nonchalance of many lead climbers (& belayers in general) in the gym but the general practice in lead belaying is not to anchor to the ground.

ajfclark
1/03/2014
11:00:49 AM
Unless you used quite a long tether it would be hard to spot the climber to the first bolt? Aren't those anchor points the floor quite a way back on a lot of routes?
el_crimpo
1/03/2014
1:13:09 PM
Wishing a speedy recovery for the poor guy who fell.

Looking at the scene and chatting to a few who partially saw it, it sounded like either the climber had fallen whilst clipping and the belayer was paying out rope and was caught unaware; or a complacent and distracted belayer.

I hope the hardrock staff caught the guys details so they can ask a few more questions and assess if they need to change anything.

Where they guy decked, top ropes have been removed so that its more evenly spaced, I dont believe it was crowded or there was anything other than a couple of ropes.

I think the crowds can be very distracting for some, and its very noisy at times. That gym gets crazy crowded, we usually just wait 30-60mins till most of the first timers pump out and leave, before we start leading.

I think one gym in West Aus used to hand out the lead passes on a night by night basis so they could monitor, potentially stop any leading if the gym was too crowded or if they didnt have the appropriate staff members on. Not sure how well the system worked though...

ambyeok
1/03/2014
2:09:45 PM
CBD is a recreational facility with little training value. In my experience the only worthwhile climbs were the features and corners. Management should admit that they only care about the dollar and ban lead climbing. Let's face it for every 'lead' climbing dollar they lose they will easily make up for in more punter and school groups top roping. No leading - no loss

stugang
1/03/2014
9:24:12 PM
On 1/03/2014 Drake wrote:
>>>> especially in relation to securing the belayer to the ground.
>
>Anchoring a lead belayer is generally a bad idea, because it limits the
>ability to give a soft catch, and hard catches on lead falls cause broken
>ankles.

That is weird....I betcha that the smashed up dude at nunawadding wishes he had a hard catch.

stugang
1/03/2014
9:47:14 PM
On 1/03/2014 ambyeok wrote:
>CBD is a recreational facility with little training value. In my experience
>the only worthwhile climbs were the features and corners. Management should
>admit that they only care about the dollar and ban lead climbing. Let's
>face it for every 'lead' climbing dollar they lose they will easily make
>up for in more punter and school groups top roping. No leading - no loss

why does "leading" give more training value than toproping? anyway at the end of the day we agree - as banning leading in all gyms would make my day. Personally I don't think climbing bottom up in a gym should be called leading...we should think of another term. Doing it on natural protection is called "trad climbing", doing it on bolts is called "sport climbing" doing it on bolts in a gym should be called "douche climbing".

.....you know who you are mr allan key....
rightarmbad
2/03/2014
12:31:17 AM
I just don't get why anybody would want to lead climb in a gym.
Very little of leading in a gym is relate-able to 'proper' climbing, and only leads to pressure that 'proper' climbing be made the same as gym climbing to satiate the the gym bunny show off wannaby's desire to be seen to be able to climb outdoors.

Gyms are a place where you can practice micro skills in a concentrated short time.

It seems to me that the only people that lead in a gym are simply newer climbers wanting to show off their newly learned 'skill' to slightly less experienced other users.

ajfclark
2/03/2014
9:13:40 AM
On 2/03/2014 rightarmbad wrote:
>Gyms are a place where you can practice micro skills in a concentrated short time.

You can't practice any of the micro-skills needed for leading in the gym? What if you're working on your fear of falling or that you overgrip while on lead because you're focussing on other things or that you can't clip for shit with your left hand while under pressure or whatever?

I haven't been to a gym for a long time, but I remember them being really good for controlling a large number of the variables in climbing such that you can work on the one that is troubling you. I don't think leading in the gym is always that different to picking a route with slopers through the crux or that's on steep ground and little holds or whatever weakness you want to target.
Drake
2/03/2014
1:57:35 PM
>>>That is weird....I betcha that the smashed up dude at nunawadding wishes he had a hard catch.

I don't understand your point Stu- as anchoring the belayer (or not) had nothing to do with the groundfall discussed here. Sure, a hard catch would be preferable to decking, but so what? My point is that the ability to give a soft catch is an extremely important part of lead belaying, and giving a soft catch is impeded by anchoring the belayer. There is no good reason to anchor the belayer unless there is truly huge weight disparity between leader and belayer (and then you should re-think the whole arrangement), or if the belayer is in a precarious position (e.g., small ledge, all multipitching).

nmonteith
Online Now
2/03/2014
4:48:14 PM
You can't toprope a 10m ceiling.
MalcolmX
2/03/2014
5:40:36 PM
On 2/03/2014 rightarmbad wrote:
>I just don't get why anybody would want to lead climb in a gym.

I usually always only lead in a gym (as all people do in my home gym in germany). If you are justed to leading outdoors, why should not you also lead indoors. It is not the same as outdoors but more similar and you can practice your lead skills in a safe environment. And on really overhanging routes (not there are any at CBD), it is much safer to lead anyway.

About the accident, i don't saw the beginning of it i just saw the last meters of the fall, but for me it seemed like the belayer just let the rope run through his ATC guide. He said something, that he slipped of the rope. In my opinion it had nothing to do with the fact that the gym was crowded, it was just a mistake of a probably inexperienced belayer who never catched a lead.

phillipivan
2/03/2014
6:05:40 PM
Randy,

That is consistent with all the climbing gyms I have been to in Germany and Austria. The difference is that the sport has much deeper cultural roots/participation levels over there, and so the average competency level is somewhat higher. I've also been told the way the liability laws work is different, though I won't pretend to understand how. A very obvious difference is that the climbing gyms I went to over there were happy for me to climb, and lead, without any training/testing/checking; something unthinkable over here.

stugang
2/03/2014
9:30:26 PM
Drake wrote:

>hard catches on lead falls cause broken ankles.

Thats what I was referring to - I can foresee circumstances where this could happen, but it is hardly common.

Personally I think the whole hard/soft catch thing is overdone - usually there is so much slack, distraction and incompetence in the system that a soft catch is inevitable.


Snacks
3/03/2014
8:46:43 AM
The belayer didn't hold the brake hand. This also happens in gyms on top rope climbs.

Truckloads of cotton wool all over the gym floors should fix this problem. ;)

Snappy
3/03/2014
8:54:40 AM
On 2/03/2014 stugang wrote:
>usually
>there is so much slack, distraction and incompetence in the system that
>a soft catch is inevitable.
>
>

That's possibly the greatest thing I have read on Chockstone.
kieranl
3/03/2014
9:05:19 AM
On 2/03/2014 stugang wrote:
>Drake wrote:
>
>>hard catches on lead falls cause broken ankles.
>
>Personally I think the whole hard/soft catch thing is overdone - usually
>there is so much slack, distraction and incompetence in the system that
>a soft catch is inevitable.
>
I pretty much agree with that except that in my experience hard catches are mainly due to the belayer actively whipping in a load of rope as the leader is falling rather than just locking off. Being tethered to the ground doesn't mean that you have to immovably lashed down, you can allow movement in the system. when the leader is dragging out rope to clip you should end up tight against the tether and then move back as they climb up to the bolt.
This is going to show my ignorance as I have never lead-climbed in a gym and last visited a metro gym 5 years ago, but I would have thought that lead climbs in gyms should be set so that clipping is done with the bolt at waist level. That's the way to minimise the rope out at clip time and if people are really practising for sport climbing they should be working that skill. It's a really important skill if you're close to the ground (i.e. within 10 metres or so).

ajfclark
3/03/2014
9:15:02 AM
My memory of the places was that you're lucky if they've considered leaders at all K.
martym
3/03/2014
1:00:16 PM
On 2/03/2014 phillipivan wrote:
>That is consistent with all the climbing gyms I have been to in Germany
>and Austria. The difference is that the sport has much deeper cultural
>roots/participation levels over there, and so the average competency level
>is somewhat higher. I've also been told the way the liability laws work
>is different, though I won't pretend to understand how. A very obvious
>difference is that the climbing gyms I went to over there were happy for
>me to climb, and lead, without any training/testing/checking; something
>unthinkable over here.

When I lived in the Czech Republic, we arrived at our first gym in Prague with rope & harness, asked if there was a belay test, he said "no - if you have an accident we call an ambulance" Duty of care, ticked. From what I saw in Germany and Italy it's the same there... UK/Ireland on the other hand = nanny state.

90% of indoor climbing in CZ is lead only - and the "top ropes" are basically for kids or total newbies. Of course, they have enough climbers who regularly go to gyms to warrant ignoring one-timers / groups / kids parties. Probably something to do with the 6 month climbing season...
And they have pubs inside the gym.
jprockbelly
3/03/2014
1:30:59 PM
Thanks for the info MalcolmX, sounds like simple inexperience.

On 2/03/2014 nmonteith wrote:
>You can't toprope a 10m ceiling.

This.

steep routes + top ropes = pendulums
One Day Hero
3/03/2014
2:47:05 PM
I'm kinda curious about how big of an allen key rack Stugang's mate climbs with..........does he have a full set?

 Page 2 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 63
There are 63 messages in this topic.

 

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