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Chockstone Forum - Accidents & Injuries

Report Accidents and Injuries

 Page 4 of 7. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 138
Author
Blue Mountains - male climber injured after fall
White Gold
7/11/2013
5:46:24 PM
Very dodgy. He'd probably have footage of his face from his GoPro?
martym
7/11/2013
8:52:19 PM
On 25/10/2013 vwills wrote:
>Another lesson, I guess, is dont go climbing a multipitch with someone
>you just met by advertising 2 days before on facebook. Internet dating
>is tricky!

Although, by the OPs own post on his fundraising page - they had climbed sweet dreams together before. So either they came back the next day, or they had met more than 2 days before the accident.

Assuming that someone vouched for the belayer (and presumably the injured person as well) another lesson to take from this is - think twice before you tell a mate "yeah, he's a solid climber".
FatCanyoner
8/11/2013
8:34:53 AM
Yeah, what he has written on this forum, and included in that video, definitely doesn't align with what he wrote here: https://ipledg.com/l/bankrupt/?thanks

"I had climbed this climb 3 times before and knew the route well. My climbing partner (Sean) had also climbed the route before with me. This time we decide to do the harder finish".

It's hard to know exactly what to believe, but when he gives such different versions of events, it throws all the facts into question. Personally, I'd like to hear from this Sean bloke, especially as he was so thoroughly smashed in that latest video. There's a lot of grey area still in these accounts...

shortman
Online Now
8/11/2013
8:55:52 AM
On 8/11/2013 FatCanyoner wrote:
>Yeah, what he has written on this forum, and included in that video, definitely
>doesn't align with what he wrote here: https://ipledg.com/l/bankrupt/?thanks
>
>"I had climbed this climb 3 times before and knew the route well. My climbing
>partner (Sean) had also climbed the route before with me. This time we
>decide to do the harder finish".
>
>It's hard to know exactly what to believe, but when he gives such different
>versions of events, it throws all the facts into question.

This is bullshit. The video is like a transcript of the article you linked. Farken 'ell people, give the dude a break, pull your heads in and put yourself in his shoes for a second, and have some understanding.

Miguel75
8/11/2013
10:40:58 AM
On 7/11/2013 Miguel75 wrote:
>If I were in Daniels position I'd be having very serious words with the
>belayer. Has anyone else here climbed with and/or know the belayer. I don't
>reckon a witch hunt is in order though it does seem pretty dodgy that he
>bailed.

Let me clarify my position; I don't believe Daniel's being dodgy, I feel it is dodgy that the partner bailed... I can only imagine what they both must be going through and unless his (presumably ex) climbing buddy is a completely heartless individual I reckon he'd be feeling pretty darn bad about the situation.

I know it's beating a dead horse but I'd love to know exactly what went wrong with the belay.

I wish them both a speedy recovery.

Duang Daunk
8/11/2013
12:20:24 PM
On 8/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>On 8/11/2013 FatCanyoner wrote:
>>Yeah, what he has written on this forum, and included in that video,
>definitely
>>doesn't align with what he wrote here: https://ipledg.com/l/bankrupt/?thanks
>>
>>"I had climbed this climb 3 times before and knew the route well. My
>climbing
>>partner (Sean) had also climbed the route before with me. This time we
>>decide to do the harder finish".
>>
>>It's hard to know exactly what to believe, but when he gives such different
>>versions of events, it throws all the facts into question.
>
>This is bullshit. The video is like a transcript of the article you linked.
>Farken 'ell people, give the dude a break, pull your heads in and put yourself
>in his shoes for a second, and have some understanding.

Weren't they all messed up in the accident?

It is all dodgy in the blueys and Sean has bolted. He is not a Croatian by any chance?
bigfish
8/11/2013
3:10:46 PM
I think we as a climbing community should all learn from this and what to do and not to do when on a multi pitch in regard to top belaying. I have always believed that belaying off your harness for second is not the best practise, maybe it was back in the day with the limited devices available, but now with our reverso's and guide devices there is no need to. If your second has trouble and you need to perform a rescue or escape the belay it is extremely hard to do so. And imagine the forces it would put on you and then your safety set-up if they take a whipper as what has happened here. I went out climbing with a new partner recently, who was quite experienced and was surprised that he still used this practice and did not have a auto lock belay device for top belaying, I was glad to see that the rope did run up to the anchor before coming down to me.
I personally don't believe that a gri gri is good to use as a top belay device.
I would like to hear what people's thoughts are with using gri gir's on multi pitch climb's.

We should always question the techniques we use to see if they are the safest practise and be willing to change them if they are not.
You some how think you are safe on second, but I think this reiterates the importance to talk to your leader before he or she leaves the ground and ask what they are going to set up for your belay and that they have the gear to do it. I have gotten in the habit of doing this with some new climbers I have been going out with recently.

my thoughts are with the injured,
and personally after watching the video I think it is quite obvious the situation he is in now.
kieranl
8/11/2013
3:42:10 PM
On 8/11/2013 bigfish wrote:
>I think we as a climbing community should all learn from this and what
>to do and not to do when on a multi pitch in regard to top belaying.
>I have always believed that belaying off your harness for second is not
>the best practise, maybe it was back in the day with the limited devices
>available, but now with our reverso's and guide devices there is no need
>to.
What do you do if the only good anchors are at foot level when standing on the belay ledge? I would (and do) sit down and belay from my belay loop. This may not happen on bolted routes but it's fairly common on trad routes. I'd be concerned about climbing with someone who wasn't competent to belay a second from their harness.
patto
8/11/2013
4:07:06 PM
On 8/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>I'd be concerned about climbing with someone who wasn't competent to belay
>a second from their harness.
I agree with this.

Furthermore I find it odd claiming that belaying from your harness makes self rescue difficult as escaping the belay is difficult. If you don't have the skills to escape a belay then you won't be much use in the subsequent second rescue anyway.


The scariest belay I've been belayed by is by an American on the first pitch on the Watchtower Crack. He built an anchor to the right of the ledge and did a redirect and the sat horizontally left across from the anchor without even a personal safety. Had I fallen I would have pulled him off into space.
martym
8/11/2013
4:11:04 PM
On 8/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>This is bullshit. The video is like a transcript of the article you linked.
>Farken 'ell people, give the dude a break, pull your heads in and put yourself
>in his shoes for a second, and have some understanding.

There is a very important question being asked: Was this someone he was familiar with and trusted - very scary; or was this a mystery partner he met on Facebook 2 days before - irresponsible. Everyone has asked: what actually happened? Which we still don't know.

Regardless, it's very sad, very unfortunate, and could (perhaps not exactly this way) happen to any one of us.

He is, however, asking for money - so it's fair to ask for clarification, which hasn't been provided.
JohnK
8/11/2013
5:12:46 PM
On 8/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>On 8/11/2013 bigfish wrote:
>>I think we as a climbing community should all learn from this and what
>>to do and not to do when on a multi pitch in regard to top belaying.
>
>>I have always believed that belaying off your harness for second is not
>>the best practise, maybe it was back in the day with the limited devices
>>available, but now with our reverso's and guide devices there is no need
>>to.
>What do you do if the only good anchors are at foot level when standing
>on the belay ledge? I would (and do) sit down and belay from my belay loop.
>This may not happen on bolted routes but it's fairly common on trad routes.
>I'd be concerned about climbing with someone who wasn't competent to belay
>a second from their harness.

Exactly - climbing requires creating various solutions to problems depending on the situation - you should be able to belay from your harness OR anchors as required in a particular situation (as long as the direction of pull aligns with the way the anchor is set up).

You should also be able to belay safely with various devices including gri gri's, stitch plates and in fact even a locking biner if required using an Italian hitch.

Also you should know how to escape the system if required in case of a need for rescuing the second etc and or need to escape the system.


shortman
Online Now
8/11/2013
5:42:50 PM
On 7/11/2013 PDRM wrote:
>Extremely poor form that his partner buggered off after the fall and hasn't
>been seen or heard from since if that's correct (as stated in one of those
>clips).
>P

Totally agree.

Why lots of people are expecting Dan (dude who fell) to have all his answers I can't understand.

Think about it people.

shortman
Online Now
8/11/2013
5:54:15 PM
On 8/11/2013 martym wrote:
>On 8/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>>This is bullshit. The video is like a transcript of the article you linked.
>>Farken 'ell people, give the dude a break, pull your heads in and put
>yourself
>>in his shoes for a second, and have some understanding.
>
>There is a very important question being asked: Was this someone he was
>familiar with and trusted - very scary; or was this a mystery partner he
>met on Facebook 2 days before - irresponsible. Everyone has asked: what
>actually happened? Which we still don't know.
>
>Regardless, it's very sad, very unfortunate, and could (perhaps not exactly
>this way) happen to any one of us.
>
>He is, however, asking for money - so it's fair to ask for clarification,
>which hasn't been provided.

How about this - describe in detail how you were last belayed as a seconder, without speaking to that person. What u got? The only thing not answered is how close they were.

Why does that need to be clarified?

Miguel75
8/11/2013
6:28:45 PM
On 8/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>...SNIP... Why lots of people are expecting Dan (dude who fell) to have all his answers
>I can't understand....SNIP...

I would imagine Dan's likely been given some information by the authorities as to what may have occurred though the only person who really knows for sure is the belayer and even then, in high stress situations, peoples recollections aren't always accurate.

I reckon climbing multi pitch climbs with a new partner is a lot like gambling; only bet what you're willing to lose.

Two important lessons climbing has taught me;
1 Gravity is always on!
2 Brain damage is rarely good.

White Trash
8/11/2013
9:07:18 PM
On 8/11/2013 Miguel75 wrote:
>On 8/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>>...SNIP... Why lots of people are expecting Dan (dude who fell) to have
>all his answers
>>I can't understand....SNIP...
>
>I would imagine Dan's likely been given some information by the authorities
>as to what may have occurred though the only person who really knows for
>sure is the belayer and even then, in high stress situations, peoples recollections
>aren't always accurate.
>
>I reckon climbing multi pitch climbs with a new partner is a lot like
>gambling; only bet what you're willing to lose.
>
>Two important lessons climbing has taught me;
>1 Gravity is always on!
>2 Brain damage is rarely good.

i doubt the authorities know one end of a rope from the other regarding what happened by the belayer.
will be interesting when the local grapevine catches up with that belayer if he is still in the country. beware the unknown belayer who appears at your local crag.

patto. were you leading or seconding in the situation you discribe?

bigfish
>And imagine the forces it would put on you and then your safety set-up if they take a whipper as what has happened here.

there shoulda been minimal force if the dude was being belayed from above properly. sounds to me like to much slack was allowed to build up in the system and even then it dont account for a 35 m fall of a second who should have had a tightish rope


Sabu
8/11/2013
9:16:34 PM
On 8/11/2013 JohnK wrote:
>Exactly - climbing requires creating various solutions to problems depending
>on the situation - you should be able to belay from your harness OR anchors
>as required in a particular situation (as long as the direction of pull
>aligns with the way the anchor is set up).
>
>You should also be able to belay safely with various devices including
>gri gri's, stitch plates and in fact even a locking biner if required using
>an Italian hitch.
>
>Also you should know how to escape the system if required in case of a
>need for rescuing the second etc and or need to escape the system.

Spot on!

Macciza
8/11/2013
9:37:18 PM
Have generally stayed out of this as the general tone of the discussion is pretty weird . .
It was (imho) belay failure (not slack buildup etc) - Either the rope was let go of (whilst using a non-locking device) or the locking device was set up wrongly ( backwards thru grigri or opes wrong on reverse style device)

But I gotta say something about bigfishs post . .
How you have to belay is dictated by the circumstances at hand - even 'back in the day' we could belay properly with the 'limited devices' of the time, (mind you I think we all considered belaying a far more serious affair back then but thats a different matter).
Reverso's etc aren't fail-safe- put the rope in wrong and big falls are possible.
Right, so you went out with someone who you believe is 'quite experienced' but then passed judgement on what he did - Are you more experienced? Maybe he did what he did for a particular reason, including the possibility of belaying direct from the harness if he thought it appropriate. Maybe he hates reversos due to the fact that they are a pain if you have to lower someone (who's having issues with the crux) but might have used one if he thought his seconder would cruise the climb . .

Grigris are fine for top belay off an anchor, or even bottom belay so long as you know how to use it and are aware of potential issue in your setup. - why do think they are not up to the task?

And yeah same as others, I get worried about newer climbers with limited skill sets and 'rule-based' solutions but without much breadth of knowledge or depth of experience. I definitely prefer climbers who can come up with a solution that suits the situation, rather then those that try to do it the other way around(must belay off anchor with reverso etc). Ultimately one should be able to belay anywhere anytime with any gear - and if I really needed to double check what my lead climber was going to be doing at belay he has not reached (or even seen), I'd either retire myself, or the leader . . .

And Keiran - we used to have quite a few sit-down belays up here in the Blueies - Used to love sitting at the top of Shipley belaying people up before rapping back down . . .
kieranl
8/11/2013
9:38:04 PM
On 8/11/2013 shortman wrote:
>On 7/11/2013 PDRM wrote:
>>Extremely poor form that his partner buggered off after the fall and
>hasn't
>>been seen or heard from since if that's correct (as stated in one of
>those
>>clips).
>>P
>
>Totally agree.
>
>Why lots of people are expecting Dan (dude who fell) to have all his answers
>I can't understand.
>
>Think about it people.
I'm with Shortman on this. The guy was dropped and badly hurt. If there's any explaining to be done it's from the guy on the other end.
If Dan's story isn't always consistent what does it matter? Maybe he has trouble remembering things around the accident time - it does happen.
As to his fund-raising effort, either donate or not according to your whim but give up on the judgement.
martym
8/11/2013
11:51:09 PM
On 8/11/2013 kieranl wrote:
>I'm with Shortman on this. The guy was dropped and badly hurt. If there's
>any explaining to be done it's from the guy on the other end.
I don't think anyone's disputing that.

Sean Kop

- if you're out there, we want answers!

The topic of the thread & Original Post was about an injured climber, which usually ends up in a story unravelling & lessons being learned. The injured climber has since added some information. I forwarded that video on to everyone I know. Partly to help him out, but also as a cautionary tale: for god's sake triple check your belay guys...
The whole point here is to figure out what went wrong. We'll probably never hear from:

Sean Kop

- hopefully he hasn't taken up packing parachutes or something... but I can't imagine him belaying any time soon...

>but give up on the judgement.
I've just been asking questions.. there's tons of speculation and diversions here. I just really want to know how someone fell 35m on top belay.
There's tons of ideas, we'll probably never know. But at least it's generating discussion.

As to Daniel, I wish him all the best in his recovery & in restarting his business when it's al finally over. I've known people who have broken backs, legs and other injuries; (though not through this degree of gross negligence) they recovered and are back in action.
I would not object to him starting a new thread with his request for support, let's get community spirited.

In a better world, Sean Kop would be made to explain himself.
That's one of the unfortunate realities of climbing being on the "fringe".

Stugang
9/11/2013
12:02:04 AM
There is an old school video of some folk doing Taste of honey at araps. My recollection is that when the leader tops out he just walks a metre or so back, braces himself in a good position and waist belays without placing any gear. (I think his second even falls but I really could be wrong on that).

Whether my recollection is wrong or not I've done the same thing many times (naughty I know), but always in the right situations. Also I reckon i would of done a better job of catching dan with a waist belay and no gear than the muppet belaying him that dropped him.

Point is regardless how cool the gear you own is - 'reversos' , grigris ' 'belay off the harness versus belay off gear' it's all academic because if you are a muppet you are likely to hurt someone regardless of the gear you own, and if you climb with a muppet you are likely to get hurt.

There needs to be more muppet detection training.



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There are 138 messages in this topic.

 

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