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Chockstone Forum - Climbing Videos
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|Tassy's hardest trad climb
The vid was average but it is good that it was done, and the subject climb is important.
It also highlights the stupidity and short sighted nature of bolting cracks, or any place close to clippable from a natural line.
On 18/04/2014 Benny G wrote:
>I agree with Simey on the vid quality, tho wasnt brutal enough to tear
>it to shreds, as its good to see any oz climbing filmed as theres so little
>interesting news in hotown is theres another new hardest trad route, pleasant
>screams direct on trad at grade 30, it also eliminates bolts and is more
>of a headpoint like cj's.
Yeah well its not an entry into goatfest or any big film, its just to show people some of the climbing with a quick editing job. Simey was just baiting me, big surprise!
About green pointing pleasant screams direct.... Last time I checked Adam had pulled out the piton(s?) next to the bolts and has not sent it. Maybe I am out of the loop. But if he did send it with or without hammering in more pitons it would not change the grade! How does clipping a piton instead of a bolt make the climb harder?
Also, Hubris was led mostly ground up. The gear is good and falls are safe. It crosses a sport climb that unfortunately has bolts by the crack. Pleasant Screams Direct has very little gear except for the bolts!. After weeks(months?) of top roping the route and searching for gear placements Adam decided to hammer in pitons anyway. Basically PSD does not exist as any kind of "trad" route. Its exists as Adam's fantasy at the moment and I hope it stays that way.
You should climb PSD if you havent already! And Hubris! Or maybe any of the other trad routes that actually exist. Thanks for the input Ben.
Seems your out of the loop or Adams not as good at promo as you :)
I dont climb that grade but i reckon clipping 2 pitons in a 50m pitch and carrying and placing all other trad on lead would be a fair bit harder than clipping pre-placed draws hence the extra grade. Plus the trad holding on tighter factor must make it a bit harder.
Not sure why u are trying to play down someone elses achievement, i don't know you or Adam but am happy to hear others are pushing it. Sounds like a bit of sour grapes on your part, not wanting to have the second hardest route, or got something against Adam??
Have you climbed pleasant screams on bolts, if so, you'd have seen theres gear on it, even i can see cracks from the ground.
Well done on your achievement by the way.
>Yeah well its not an entry into goatfest or any big film, its just to
>show people some of the climbing with a quick editing job. Simey was just
>baiting me, big surprise!
>About green pointing pleasant screams direct.... Last time I checked Adam
>had pulled out the piton(s?) next to the bolts and has not sent it. Maybe
>I am out of the loop. But if he did send it with or without hammering in
>more pitons it would not change the grade! How does clipping a piton instead
>of a bolt make the climb harder?
>Also, Hubris was led mostly ground up. The gear is good and falls are
>safe. It crosses a sport climb that unfortunately has bolts by the crack.
>Pleasant Screams Direct has very little gear except for the bolts!. After
>weeks(months?) of top roping the route and searching for gear placements
>Adam decided to hammer in pitons anyway. Basically PSD does not exist as
>any kind of "trad" route. Its exists as Adam's fantasy at the moment and
>I hope it stays that way.
>You should climb PSD if you havent already! And Hubris! Or maybe any of
>the other trad routes that actually exist. Thanks for the input Ben.
I agree with Ben, smells like a trad conspiracy here against another climber to make u look good. Though I'm curious what your pinnacle ethics are in reference to "Hubris was led mostly ground up", what does that mean? Just a tad of toproping that your hammering Adam for?
Any why don't you check your facts before dissing someone else, a friend of mine belayed Adam on his route and said he spent 6 days on it in total (not weeks or months) then led it first go, and placed loads of gear tho small stuff by the sounds of it.
If others are having fun, whether it leading grade 20, who gives a hoot.
"I agree with Ben, smells like a trad conspiracy here against another climber to make u look good. " Well I have no idea what this is suppose to mean but a trad conspiracy sounds pretty cool! Firstly, these little discussions are suppose to be constructive, so lets not create some straw-man that I am somehow singling Adam out because I want to be "king of trad" or some bs. That said, Ill move into my critique.
It is to me just plain stupid to make a big show about RE-climbing a bolted route with the intention of placing gear and then HAMMERING IN PITONS ANYWAY. I do not think there is a precedent for this. I think most people find it retarded to say the least. I have told Adam as much. This doesnt mean that I hate him as a person or it somehow invalidates every climb he has done. However, I am really really against this style of ascent (i hesitate to use the word style considering Adam is the only practitioner).
The blindingly obvious difference between Hubris and what Adam did on PSD is that my route can actually be lead on-sight, ground up, placing gear... LIKE A TRAD ROUTE! This is why I said I led it mostly ground up; To highlight the difference between working a route for days after already red-pointing to make sure you dont fall (like adam did) and being able to go from the ground placing gear because the gear is that good. I ended up rapping over it once and cleaning out some loose rock I also spent an hour or so figuring out the crux which was way harder than I thought it would be.
I would almost think PSD led placing gear to be thirty if Adam hammered in the pitons on lead. I bet my left nut he didnt. Rock climbing is in general a waste of time. Adam has invented a way of climbing that makes people who love to waste their time question Adam's grip on reality.
I give a hoot because pitons went out of style in the 70s. Its clean climbing now. His use of pitons automatically justifies it for everyone else. If everyone else follows his lead, there will be alot of routes destroyed. Therefore, it is a bad practice. I could, for one of many examples, rap into deeper waters(or any other route he bolted) and hammer in as many pitons or whatever else gear I want to and then lead it and chop the bolts. He actually encouraged me to do this! Rest assured, I will not be doing this. This attitude is a bit dangerous I think.
"dissing" has nothing to do with it. I find it very strange how fragile climbers ego's are! One disagreement and all the sudden its boo-hoo water works time. Although Adam never got as bent out of shape when I called him as his mates on chockstone! Have fun out there boys.
Pound a pin, why not just pull on the gear, some people call that trad climbing. Why argue about who is better or what is harder, last I heard people climb pleasant screams direct as an eliminate sport route because they have nothing better to do with their time, same with CJ's thing he didn't clip a bolt because of personal beliefs in style, Its all a little lame, will someone waste there time and repeat these accents? I guess they might if they think its fun. Both ascents are valid ascents in their own style. Why not just make shit up? I have low self estime, I like to spray about myself and what i think. Good intentions dont lead to good outcomes for everyone, good style is a similar thing, last i heard if you get drunk at the end of the day you win.
Lets get something straight, how is Adams ascent a big show when he told a few mates, and yours has a soundtrack and film clip??
And back to basics a trad route isn't a route that can be led onsight! Last i checked a trad route is a route that has removable protection placed in cracks, pegs still fit that criteria tho aren't very common these days. If routes with pegs aren't trad routes then theres a number of routes at Araps that arent trad routes or sport routes, what are they!!?
By the way Black Diamond (one of the leading climbing brands in the world) still make pegs so maybe they aren't redundant yet. Its stupid to harp on about 2 thin pegs that were placed then removed in a 50m pitch. Noone will probably repeat it but its cool that he did it.
On 26/04/2014 Benny G wrote:
>And back to basics a trad route isn't a route that can be led onsight!
>Last i checked a trad route is a route that has removable protection placed
>in cracks, pegs still fit that criteria tho aren't very common these days.
> If routes with pegs aren't trad routes then theres a number of routes
>at Araps that arent trad routes or sport routes, what are they!!?
Re the emboldened bit.
It has been done since the inception of climbing to my knowledge.
Re pitons (and similar).
They can be hand placed (modern clean-aid ones in particular), but even if they are hammered; if only used as protection and not for aiding on, then the route is still technically a free climb, and can be done ground up, onsight, etc*, if the ascentionist has that skillset/inclination.
(*Even aid climbs can be done that way!).
Pitons are not part of most modern racks, but that doesn't change the fact that routes that may use them, or have them as insitu fixed pieces at a later date if the buggers who placed them are to lazy to remove them, are not still trad routes.
Don't mind me as I am just an old fart climbing relic, so if you want the modern take on things to answer your question "what are they!!?", ... they are abominations!
Heh, heh, heh.
Hey Daz. I don't think Adam's was a "valid" ascent and I certainly hope people don't repeat it. What if everyone in Hobart rapped over pleasant screams whacking in pitons? Am I the only person who thinks this is stupid?
Hey Ben. Lets put Adam's ascent ---not "accent" Daz! ;) --- in context:
Let's say someone redpoints Serpentine after many days (weeks, months) of working it (if you dont know what this route is, I am sorry for you) . They then decide the bolts are unnecessary so they fix a line and leave it over the route for a month while they work it some more. They then hammer in some pitons anyway and climb it.
If he did this on Serpentine it would be universally condemned. But Adam did exactly this in sleepy little Tassy and its supposed to be no big deal. Pleasant Screams Direct is the best route in Hobart. The guide book calls it "the Serpentine of Tasmania". Adam tied it up for over a month with a fixed line to follow through with his little project and ended up hammering in pitons. These two points are really the only thing I take issue with.
As far as what Adam did as being a "trad" ascent, I wrote up my opinion about headpointing here:
I think re-climbing a bolted route using gear instead of the bolts would go something like:
1. You notice from the ground that it looks like there is a lot of gear placements.
2. You climb the route clipping the bolts and realize there will be plenty of gear.
3. You go from the ground placing the abundant gear you have seen that inspired you in the first place.
What did Adam do? He talked himself into believing there was plenty of gear but realized there wasn't and instead of just giving up on the idea he smashed in pitons. This is a really dumb idea. Its not a matter of "pitons are used in some trad ascents". There is a world of difference between going from the ground onsight with an emergency piton hammer and hammering in pitons on abseil.
Routes that require the "leader" to rap in and hammer in pitons before climbing from the ground are not considered "traditional" by many people (anyone?).
And one more time... Its not like I want people to march to Adam's house with torches and pitch forks. Hes a good dude and fun to climb with. I think he has a great imagination about climbing. I just think he efforts with PSD missed the mark. Remember, I didn't bring this up but I'm just pointing out what I think are dead obvious problems with Adam's style.
Siege, It was a valid ascent just like a brown point, a bean point or climbing a tree with an ice axe and crampons. If you make it to the top then you made an ascent. What you are arguing about is style, and which style is better.
The current pinnacle style of the day for trad climbing is to solo followed by climbing from the ground, onsite, placing the gear as you lead. Beyond these two styles you begin to head into a murky and confusing world of the hierarchy of bad style. You can also call this fashion... making you kids, fashion victims.
The use of fixed protection is not traditional climbing, I dont care how many classics at araps have pins and bolts in them, once you clip the pin or bolt you have made a choice of perceived safety over style. This should not take away from any ascent. But it is not the best style.
Having never placed a bolt for rock climbing and never pounded a pin for a trad climbing, I'm a casual observer just looking on in disgust at you fashion victims with your egos and piles of pointless and ignorant word.
I would like to be impartial but I'm not, CJ didn't clip the fixed pro, making his ascent a trad climb, Adam clipped pins but not the bolts making his ascent similar to just skipping bolts for fun, or only clipping the carrots on a blue mountains classic rather than the shiny new bolt next to it, for a more pure ascent. This is not trad climbing, but it sure is rock climbing, so CJ you are incorrect in saying this in not an ascent, it is an ascent of an eliminate sport route that had pitons placed on rap and gear placed on lead and the bolts skipped... what a pile of shit. I wish Bob was still alive, he would have made up a story fit for kings, about how this was a classic moment in the universe. Adams ascent is no more trad climbing that running down a wombat, chopping off its head and skull f---ing it... classic. Keep up the good work kids.
Please forgive my expression in my first rant, that one was written sitting in the street drinking wine living the good life and passing time.
A few points:
I can't see this being a popular thing to do for a few reasons so forget the drama queen antics CJ! Most people don't own and dont know how to place pitons (thats got to limit things!), and it sounds scary!, 99% would rather clip the bolts. Is it going to become popular? NO, Will anyone be able to see the peg scars, NOT likely while they are climbing a grade 29 to peek inside a thin crack.
As for the serpentine comparision, jeez your stretching analogys here!! Serpentine is about half bolts and half trad and was done by HB as a minimalist bolting effort (using available trad) and climbed in fine style. Pleasant Screams was bolted as a sport route with no effort to use any gear. So the 'serpentine of tasmania' is quite a stretch, probably a route like Murdoch the horse F##ker at Nowra is a closer match for style. Though it doesn't have the same marketing ring about it :) Can u get my point though, its not the climbing but how it was bolted and climbed that affects things, would anyone give a hoot if someone did what Adam did at Nowra, NO.
Back to Pleasant screams direct, Sam put in 21 u bolts plus a belay, thats 46 holes plus cleaned off heaps of flakes, funny how thats fine by you cj ! but put 2 pegs in (then remove them and leave a slightly smoother crack inside) and its all crazy business by your reckoning. So what Adam did on PSD is pretty minimal disturbance to the route in the scheme of things, I agree it wouldn't be appropriate on Serpentine as Serpentine was a minimal bolting/impact style from the start whereas PSD wasn't.
There are 31 messages in this topic.
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