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Chockstone Forum - Climbing Videos

Post links and comments about your favourite climbing flicks

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 61
Author
Grit Ground Up

ajfclark
28/04/2012
9:18:18 AM

Grit Ground Up from Michele Caminati on Vimeo.


davidn
28/04/2012
10:42:53 AM
Impressive, but... He's a V14 climber so these are obviously well within his capabilities (something like V7 moves?), he obviously has good beta and the correct gear and in the case of the first route, a perfect line of chalk to follow.

I know it's not onsighting, but ground up also has a bit of a flavour of not knowing about the moves before you do them, doesn't it?
Hagges
28/04/2012
12:45:52 PM
On 28/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>Impressive, but... He's a V14 climber so these are obviously well within
>his capabilities (something like V7 moves?), he obviously has good beta
>and the correct gear and in the case of the first route, a perfect line
>of chalk to follow.
>
>I know it's not onsighting, but ground up also has a bit of a flavour
>of not knowing about the moves before you do them, doesn't it?

Also the threat of a ground fall, breaking something or death adds to the grade. Very awesome effort to do these climbs ground up. Not many people have. The cruxes on these climbs actually vary from V8-V10. Imagine trying to flash a V10 in a potentially dangerous situation

davidn
28/04/2012
2:07:05 PM
On 28/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>Also the threat of a ground fall, breaking something or death adds to the
>grade. Very awesome effort to do these climbs ground up. Not many people
>have. The cruxes on these climbs actually vary from V8-V10. Imagine trying
>to flash a V10 in a potentially dangerous situation

Maybe to an E grade, but not to a V grade. A V5 highball is just that - a climb with at least one V5 move that is a highball. Even if it's certain death if you fall off, it's still V5.

British 6c is supposed to be roughly equivalent to 29 - could see a V8 problem but can't see having a V10 on that? But then, it *is* the British grading system...

BoulderBaby
28/04/2012
2:23:55 PM
On 28/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>On 28/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>>Also the threat of a ground fall, breaking something or death adds to
>the
>>grade. Very awesome effort to do these climbs ground up. Not many people
>>have. The cruxes on these climbs actually vary from V8-V10. Imagine trying
>>to flash a V10 in a potentially dangerous situation
>
>Maybe to an E grade, but not to a V grade. A V5 highball is just that
>- a climb with at least one V5 move that is a highball. Even if it's certain
>death if you fall off, it's still V5.
>
>British 6c is supposed to be roughly equivalent to 29 - could see a V8
>problem but can't see having a V10 on that. But then, it *is* the British
>grading system...


You're arguing with a born and bred peak district brit... are you sure you wish to continue?

davidn
28/04/2012
2:58:21 PM
On 28/04/2012 BoulderBaby wrote:
>You're arguing with a born and bred peak district brit... are you sure
>you wish to continue?

Wait, was John "Vermin" Sherman actually a brit??

The statement 'Also the threat of a ground fall, breaking something or death adds to the grade' doesn't make sense to me in terms of V grades, and the response seemed to refer to V grades. I can't really see what the peak district has to do with V grades, unless it's something to do with John Gill or someone? If he meant E grades, then it'd make much more sense.

As for whether 6c really does equate to 29... I'm certainly not going to argue with a Brit about that (though some brits seem to use French grades nowadays anyway).

Anyhow, my original point was that 'ground up' seems to infer that he's learning the climbs one move at a time, but I reckon he got a right spray of beta before he jumped on any of those.

BoulderBaby
28/04/2012
4:47:22 PM
On 28/04/2012 davidn wrote:
>On 28/04/2012 BoulderBaby wrote:
>>You're arguing with a born and bred peak district brit... are you sure
>>you wish to continue?
>
>Wait, was John "Vermin" Sherman actually a brit??
>
>The statement 'Also the threat of a ground fall, breaking something or
>death adds to the grade' doesn't make sense to me in terms of V grades,
>and the response seemed to refer to V grades. I can't really see what
>the peak district has to do with V grades, unless it's something to do
>with John Gill or someone? If he meant E grades, then it'd make much more
>sense.
>
>As for whether 6c really does equate to 29... I'm certainly not going
>to argue with a Brit about that (though some brits seem to use French grades
>nowadays anyway).
>
>Anyhow, my original point was that 'ground up' seems to infer that he's
>learning the climbs one move at a time, but I reckon he got a right spray
>of beta before he jumped on any of those.

I personally don't know, but Hagges is.

ajfclark
28/04/2012
5:01:42 PM
On 28/04/2012 davidn wrote:
>Anyhow, my original point was that 'ground up' seems to infer that he's learning the climbs one move at a time, but I reckon he got a right spray of beta before he jumped on any of those.

The blurb of the video reads:

"Three classic routes from my Peak Distritc's tour on march 2012: Braille Trail, Kaluza Klein and Master's Edge. All graded E7 6c and all climbed ground-up after watching friends trying the moves. I had a fall on the first two: quite safe on Braille Trail (slipped trying to reach the arete) and a bit more scary on Kaluza, but it's part of the fun of ground up climbing. Then I had the pleasure to flash Master's Edge on my last day on grit."

And the film itself says flash (attempt) in a few places so I thought it was clear that he had beta. I should've included the blurb in the opening post to save confusion though.

Doug
28/04/2012
5:19:25 PM
On 28/04/2012 davidn wrote:

>Wait, was John "Vermin" Sherman actually a brit??
>
No.
dalai
28/04/2012
5:51:20 PM
On 28/04/2012 davidn wrote:
>Anyhow, my original point was that 'ground up' seems to infer that he's
>learning the climbs one move at a time, but I reckon he got a right spray
>of beta before he jumped on any of those.

Given the tenuous nature of many grit routes and the often poor protection, having not played on TR first and gaining confidence you can do the moves is a big deal! The difference between beta or engram aquisition by attempting first under the less mentally challenging is huge!

Arguing whether the crux is V8 or V10 is pretty lame. Yes a V8 crux is purely the difficulty of the moves, but a V8 crux way off the deck is a far more challenging proposition than one where your butt is a few inches from a pad...

White Trash
28/04/2012
6:45:45 PM
On 28/04/2012 dalai wrote:
>On 28/04/2012 davidn wrote:
>>Anyhow, my original point was that 'ground up' seems to infer that he's
>>learning the climbs one move at a time, but I reckon he got a right spray
>>of beta before he jumped on any of those.
>
>Given the tenuous nature of many grit routes and the often poor protection,
>having not played on TR first and gaining confidence you can do the moves
>is a big deal! The difference between beta or engram aquisition by attempting
>first under the less mentally challenging is huge!
>
>Arguing whether the crux is V8 or V10 is pretty lame. Yes a V8 crux is
>purely the difficulty of the moves, but a V8 crux way off the deck is a
>far more challenging proposition than one where your butt is a few inches
>from a pad...
+1
go dalai!
you sound like a man after my own heart, ie one with personal experience.
Hagges
28/04/2012
7:11:00 PM
Sorry, I meant the danger adds to the E grade. The numerical part "6c" refers to the hardest section or move on the route. So British 6c moves or sections range from V8 to V10. So E7 6c usually means a bold V8 to V10 crux. Whereas E5 6c usually means a very hard but well protected crux.

Anyway, those particular routes are probably don't have V10 sections, but still, imagine trying to flash V8 in a potentially dangerous situation. That's what the British grades refer to. The boldness and the technical difficulty of an onsight. Onsight being the key word. Not only do you need the ability but you need the bravery which Caminati clearly has demonstrated abundances of.

Caminati has displayed heaps of brilliance in this video and deserves a shrine dedicated to him for all to pay tribute.

It's also hard to compare short grit climbs to 20 - 30 meter Aussie climbs.

I apologise if I caused confusion

davidn
28/04/2012
8:48:14 PM
Thanks Hagges, that actually does clarify British grades a bit further and I did suspect you were talking about E rather than V grades. I missed that 6c covers something like 29 to 31, which would make a lot of sense as a V8-V10 crux though as you noted it's hard to compare.

I also get what others are saying and obviously flashing a V8 high up is going to be harder than low down, though Caminati's no stranger to highballing including another V11 on grit - "Screaming Dream".

The title looks like a bit of hype, but I guess that's what sells. It'll be interesting to see how far he pushes it on grit; he's certainly got all the tools.

ajfclark
28/04/2012
9:08:08 PM
On 28/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>Thanks Hagges, that actually does clarify British grades a bit further and I did suspect you were talking about E rather than V grades. I missed that 6c covers something like 29 to 31, which would make a lot of sense as a V8-V10 crux though as you noted it's hard to compare.

>I also get what others are saying and obviously flashing a V8 high up is going to be harder than low down, though Caminati's no stranger to highballing including another V11 on grit - "Screaming Dream".

>The title looks like a bit of hype, but I guess that's what sells. It'll be interesting to see how far he pushes it on grit; he's certainly got all the tools.

I think he was just trying to point out that he didn't work it to death on a top rope. That seems to be fairly unusual these days.
dalai
28/04/2012
10:39:22 PM
On 28/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>The title looks like a bit of hype, but I guess that's what sells. It'll
>be interesting to see how far he pushes it on grit; he's certainly got
>all the tools.

Bit of hype!!?? Braille Trail may be easy, but climbing ground up when your protection is...



photo from http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=107765

"It is from the ‘Outside’ Shop in Hathersage and it is a shop fitting for a shelf! The second piece is another homemade bit of gear which our friend made us, which is just simply a piece of metal about 2cm wide and 10cm long and slots into a thin pocket, the third is a black diamond tri cam- which was pretty dodgy as my brother ripped the placement out last year falling of his new route Granddad’s Slab."

Then with Masters Edge. Knowing the moves but he will also know the history of the route and that Wolfgang broke his back on this climb. That the only protection is below half height and are only a Tri-cam and an Alien in shot holes.

davidn
29/04/2012
7:26:13 AM
All of which makes em perfect for a very strong boulderer used to highballing? Interestingly, looking at Caminati's 8a scorecard, the routes are given French grades 7b/7b+. Whereas Screaming Dream which he did as a highball boulder he gave 8a+ route grade/8a/V11 boulder grade.

Out of curiousity did Jorgeson, Honnold etc work routes on top rope when they went out and romped a bunch of grit routes a while back?

ajfclark
29/04/2012
10:27:54 AM
On 29/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>All of which makes em perfect for a very strong boulderer used to highballing?
> Interestingly, looking at Caminati's 8a scorecard, the routes are given
>French grades 7b/7b+. Whereas Screaming Dream which he did as a highball
>boulder he gave 8a+ route grade/8a/V11 boulder grade.
>
>Out of curiousity did Jorgeson, Honnold etc work routes on top rope when
>they went out and romped a bunch of grit routes a while back?


UKC doesn't allow embedding the image Dalai. All I get is the little theft.gif. Here's the pic of the gear:

kieranl
29/04/2012
10:51:29 AM
On 28/04/2012 Davidn wrote:
>Impressive, but... He's a V14 climber so these are obviously well within
>his capabilities (something like V7 moves?), he obviously has good beta
>and the correct gear and in the case of the first route, a perfect line
>of chalk to follow.
and...
>A V5 highball is just that - a climb with at least one V5 move that is a highball. Even if >it's certain death if you fall off, it's still V5.
Yes, these grit climbers are such pussies. As someone else has pointed out, the concept of "correct gear" on Braille Trail is just a joke. And anyone who has been to Burbage South knows that the height of the route (6-8metres) doesn't reflect its seriousness. The ground drops away from the start in a boulder-strewn hillside, you're in leg-breaking country as soon as you step onto the rock. The "gear" has caught people falling from the first crux but it would be a very doubtful proposition from the second crux. Even with a good line of chalk to follow, a V14 boulderer could be excused for being a bit concerned about hitting the V8 move first try.
And the purity of the grading system! "A V5 highball is just that". I agree, it is a V5 highball. If it was "still V5" noone would bother adding the "highball" modifier. Let's face it, bouldering grades are at least as complex as the british trad grades. You have to know if it's got a sit-start, which holds are used at the start, if any holds are out-of bounds, how many pads and spotters to use and what the ideal soundtrack should be.
Hagges
29/04/2012
11:17:35 AM
The 8a.nu scorecards are a joke when it comes to the Grit climbs. Not very much is comparable to it. It is in a class of it's own. The Braille Trail is essentially 28/29 with a V8 crux with appauling gear. Blowing the moves at the top would mean a ground fall onto hideous boulders.

On 8a.nu there will be thousands of flashed 28/29's but only a handful of flashed
Grit 28/29's.

Most top climbers would be able to walk up it if it was bolted and perfectly safe but not many would dare try a ground up ascent. Grit climbing doesn't allow much room for error due to the nature of the rock. (You can't just yank as hard as you can on the holds).

Most highballers stack pads till it's like being indoors. Grit ethics allow minimal use of pads.
kieranl
29/04/2012
11:24:40 AM
On 29/04/2012 hagges wrote:
>Most highballers stack pads till it's like being indoors. Grit ethics
>allow minimal use of pads.
I recall a shot of someone on New Statesman with a sleeping bag (unpacked) draped over the edge of a boulder as their "protection". I suppose it would keep them warm while rescue came.

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 61
There are 61 messages in this topic.

 

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