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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 2. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 30
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Buffalo Gorge North Side North Wall [ Gorge Guide ] 

Ozymandias Rebolt

8:02:03 PM
hey everyone! in a month or so im planning on heading up to the buff for a little-big-wall fix. ive been thinking of replacing the bolts on the upper bolt ladder of Ozy Direct. currently the bolts in the ladder are getting rusty, droopy and generally a little manky. they probably do have a few year left in them but i think with this sort of thing its better to get in early, when you know you can do a good job of it. theres also a few belay bolts on the north wall that could do with an upgrade.

so my question(s) are:
1)Should i do it? is it necessary?

2) if i do replace them, any belay bolts will be 12mm tru-bolts with a fixe hanger. the bolts in the ladder however could be either glue-in carrots(8mm/10mm) , or 10mm dynabolts with a smaller(lucky) hanger. im personally leaning towards the fixed hangers, they would have been used back then if they had them. however i also like the idea of carrots, maintaining some character etc. thoughts??

3) does anybody have a jig or something to pull the old bolts out? im not so keen on having rust streaks in 10 years!

4) if the above re-bolting happen, is there any bolt funds etc out there that could chip in? im happy to pay for the bolts but if i can get a hand that would be sweet!!

5) Anybody keen to come do it with me?? probably take the ledge up it and do it over 3 days and just cruise! have a battery drill etc so wont be labouring on a hand drill!

appreciate any feedback/suggestions or just tell me to get f&*^ed!!


Simon Young

8:40:57 PM
On 14/11/2008 sliamese wrote:

>so my question(s) are:
>1)Should i do it? is it necessary?

NO & NO . . . .
9:25:36 PM
I haven't done the direct so can't respond directly. However I was pretty amazed about the first anchor above Big Grassy on Ozy (original) - 2 big fat FHs right next to a perfect crack. (which M9 is hanging off at the bottom of this pic). I think/assume that there used to be original bolts there from the 60s - a time when maybe the bolts could be excused. But with modern pro you can get bomber #2-5 wires and small cams all over the place ... so I guess my comment is: just because theres old bolts there which have nearly died doesn't automatically mean they need to be replaced ... IMHO

yes I know thats how they do their belays in Yosemite and it astounds me there too.

11:19:03 PM
On 14/11/2008 sliamese wrote:
>leaning towards the fixed hangers, they would have been used back then if they
>had them. however i also like the idea of carrots, maintaining some character

>appreciate any feedback/suggestions or just tell me to get f&*^ed!!

This is a false argument - 'that they would have used them back them' . . .
Usually put forward by people who don't really understand climbing tradition.
it is often used to justify such actions in retrobolting and the like . . .

If they had our modern gear - but still with their attitude - it would have gone clean!
Bolts used to be a 'last resort' not 'first recourse' - adventure took precedence . . .
Have you clean aided or free climbed the line and been unable to continue . . .
I think you will find several bolts and fixed pieces appeared over the years
This issue has come up before in different ways and is always canned

If you are after your 15 seconds of fame it is probably better to do a new line
Then I guess you can bolt it and retrobolt almost however you like

Thought I'd expand on my original one word reply - and consider yourself told . . .
fish boy
9:29:30 AM
The way I read it is he wants to replace a bolt LADDER.

I think you should pull the bolts and leave holes so one can bat hook up it. That would last a long time and have no rust issues....

I come and rip all that fixed junk out of pitch three while you rip the bolts out, Simon. Should be productive.
Lee C
10:29:42 AM
Sorry, have to agree with WM and Macciza.

I can't stand seeing fixed hangers down there, the recent bit of work on Ozy and Lord Gumtree, like
WM said is totally unnecessary at least two of these mega belays are next to bomber crack
placements not to mention they can both easily be passed by linking pitch's with a 60m rope.

Yosemite is great but the fixed hangers everywhere suck. The north Wall has a great feel that you
don't get over there we should keep it that way.

If the bolt ladder needed a rebolt then sure maybe it does but fixed hangers would and already do
make ozy a little less ozy.

SS carrots imo should be the very most that anything ever gets rebolted with.

It just makes me think, Why? are carrots too much of a pain? well probably less of a pain than multiple
days rebolting, are they too slow when trying to break a speed record? well if the record is set using
bolt plates then thats the way it would need to be broken.
I reckon macca might be right, it is more to do with that 15mins??

If the bolt ladder needs to be done then good on you go do it, to keep it operational and in the original
flavour of the route, that is a service. To change that flavour is a disservice, one thats already been
made and would be great to see be rectified.
Its easy to go overboard when people do these things. If you want to revolutionize something then do
it in a way that doesn't impact others, Maybe ozy could be soloed naked with 2 suction cups.

Pixie Princess
10:57:45 AM

* waves magic wand *

"POOF !!! "

gone ...

11:06:43 AM
On 15/11/2008 Pixie Princess wrote:

Looks like it only works with a toprope - that kind of defeats the purpose!

7:38:34 PM
>On 14/11/2008 sliamese wrote:
>>so my question(s) are:
>>1)Should i do it? is it necessary?
On 14/11/2008 Macciza wrote:
>NO & NO . . . .

I agree with Macca, WM and Lee C.

It really isn't neccesary and it would
>make ozy a little less ozy.

9:11:11 PM
On 15/11/2008 Lee C wrote:
>To change that flavour is a disservice, one thats already been made and would be
>great to see be rectified.

For a slightly different perspective: I've been reading about Ozy for years now, when I finally get home and get on it I want the full experience.

Sliamese: re-do the bolt ladder if you must but pulling it all to leave the bat hook option would have just as much appeal for this punter.

9:21:19 PM
If you want that experience on Ozy Direct, you can always finish the final headwall (bathooks), to Wilkinsons Lookout up Strange Ritual instead of the usual Lord Gumtree finish adjacent.

Plenty of other routes on the wall that will give you the
>full experience
as well ...
fish boy
11:26:18 AM
I was joking about the bathooks.....

11:56:33 AM
On 16/11/2008 fish boy wrote:
>I was joking about the bathooks.....

NEVER 'Joke' about bathooks - or it will come back to haunt you . . .

If he means the final bolts on the final pitch - then yeah just leave holes . . . Seriously . . .
fish boy
5:32:35 PM
I joke about what I want, thanks. No, was not talking about the last pitch, read what people wrote...the BOLT LADDER going up to the roof. Pretty sure no has free climbed it, pretty sure it won't ever be, so the joke about bat hooks wont hurt those precious free climbers with small balls who wont protect their leads with taped bathooks. (yes, I am jesting...)

Don't get to protective about those last few bolts on ozy DIRECT either macca, it's not like they would do anything if someone fell on them, and the several massive cams below would catch anything.

Any hardcore's looked at freeing she? The second hard pitch looks like some nutter could get up...and strange ritual looks perfect for a nutter too...

Pixie Princess
7:26:37 PM
Lee :

>>>suction caps

Other grouse things that one ( day hero ) can try with suction caps ...

* waves magic wand *

"セララハ !!! "

gone ...

mikl law
12:07:53 PM
Very hard to pull carrots straight out. If you hit them it makes a mess. If you twist them (need pipe spanner to fit all sizes) they can shear off at the head.
Mitch's solution is to hit them at 4 points with a cold chisel at the rock surface, they at least shear off flush then.

Glue in stainless carrots
Bob Saki
12:54:08 PM
fishboy seems to make sense, some seem to wish to never replace a bolt at all, even if unsafe..............

The good Dr
1:28:24 PM
Given the amount of re-bolting and retrobolting that has happened on the route in the past it seems disingenuous to suggest that the route has this pure history. As the premiere trade aid route in Oz some care needs to be taken in assessing the nature of the fixed gear and its need given modern climbing equipment. The old pins are dissapearing and are mostly redundant. The bolt ladder is not redundant. Turning this pitch into a bathooking exercise would only be good for s..ts and giggles and would change the routes nature significantly.

It is easier to replace old carrots prior to them becoming clapped out and unremovable. Replacement with glued in stainless carrots will retain the elusive 'flavour' of the climb that seems to most bother some people, though clipping a carrot is really not too much different than clipping a FH when you are aiding a bolt ladder! And, anyway, doesn't shiny stuff make people happy ;)

Removal of a carrot bolt can be assisted by trying to turn it back and forth. The amount of movement does not need to be much. If you take care with this step it is surprising how many carrots you can remove, though it takes a little time (which you will save when hand drilling the hole out to accept the glue in model - no power drills in the Gorge unless you like donating them to Parks).

Updating the bolt ladder, where applicable, would be desirable, and certainly more thoughtful than some of the 'work' done in the past on the belay stations.

1:34:52 PM
On 17/11/2008 The good Dr wrote:
>no power drills in the Gorge unless you
>like donating them to Parks).

Yes indeed. This is a very good point! You'll have tourists and rangers watching all the time, so PLEASE no power-tools in the gorge if possible. Hand-drilling replacements will make you really think about each and every bolt you want to replace as well. ;-)

1:36:58 PM
On 17/11/2008 mikl law wrote:
>they at least shear off flush then

~>would make for an interesting bolt ladder after that action.

On 17/11/2008 Bob Saki wrote:
>fishboy seems to make sense, some seem to wish to never replace a bolt
>at all, even if unsafe..............

It has been a while since I have done the route, but I feel I need to contribute a more elaborated opinion as the debate is still going on.

A couple of the bolts in that ladder are ordinary-ish from memory, but the majority are good for the intended purpose and would certainly be adequate protection to take a fall. From my faded memory there are only four or five bolts (maximum of 6?), and I only recall one being a long neck droopy affair and another being over-filed and not sunk as deep as some would like. My over-riding memory of that section is that when I first went there I was cleaning hero loops that my partner had been cinching tight under body-weight as clove hitches, when they would have been far easier to remove if had been girth hitched!

What concerns me most about this proposition is incremental creep with the sanitisation process.
The bolt ladder is still in good condition, especially if done as an aid climb; and sliamese acknowledges this to an extent with:
>they probably do have a few year left in them but i think with this sort of thing its better to get in early.

It is granite not sandstone, and I think they will last more than a few years ...

If people want to avoid the bolt ladder it is also easy enough to take the Original line and then the Fantini Traverse back across to the Direct above the bolt ladder. For those who want 'full value', they can also hook on the Fantini Traverse as well.

What I mean about incremental creep, is where does this process/attitude stop?
In my opinion the bolt traverse from the Gledhill Bivvy to the roof break above it, is in far more need of replacement than the bolt ladder being discussed that is located below the main roof, and quite frankly I am amazed that it seems to have gained a guernsey for discussion.

Holden Caulfield has more sh!tty bolts than Ozy. Many of its belays are a single (poor) bolt! Why is no-one calling for it to be upgraded? Once we are through with that then what about Clouded Queen; after that then Copperhead Road ...
Oh yeah, I forgot, those are harder graded aid climbs and so the expectation of good gear is less, therefore they are OK??

If we were debating belay bolts I would be more inclined to agree, but we are not, mostly because the belays are already upgraded with the relatively recent interest in the climb as a free affair.

In summary it is a bolt ladder, and they are bolts;... unlike the 'rivets' on Holden Caulfield, which has one missing off its rivet ladder to turn the line back towards Lord Gumtree top-out.

Ozy does not need sanitising.

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