Goto Chockstone Home

  Guide
  Gallery
  Tech Tips
  Articles
  Reviews
  Dictionary
  Links
  Forum
  Search
  About

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

  Shop
FREIGHT FREE
in Australia

Scarpa: Scarpa "Mystic GTX" Approach Shoe. Premium model. Gortex lined. Vibram Sole. Climbing toe... Size 43 Eur. (10 USm)  $149.00
50% Off

Chockstone Photography Australian Landscape Photography by Michael Boniwell
Australian Landscape Prints





Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 96
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
All NSW (General) (General) (General)  

Author
Kaputar - Euglah Rock
bigfish
10/01/2013
10:57:57 AM
I would like to start a discussion on the Euglah rock at Kaputar. After a recent trip there climbing around the euglah rock i have a few concerns with the quality of bolting there.

My first point was with the way some of the bolts are.
I was climbing The Last Waltz and came across a fixed hanger with the sleeve of the expansion bolt squashed under the hanger. I'm a tradie so i know what a solid expansion bolt should look like. This Hanger had half of the sleeve squashed behind the hanger not flat but twisted under it. And closer looking at the bolt showed that the thread had been cut off, so who knows how much of the thread was in the hole. So after i bailed on this route due to bad rock and bolts i climbed Protocol. It actually had the same type of fixed hangers. On this route i noticed that all the expansion bolts where the gold gal type of expansion bolts, not the standard stainless ones.

So after this i did a bit more exploring around deciding to go with the trad routes only. Anyway on the Sth side of the mountain i found 3 sport climbs with the numbers 22, 23 and 22 chiselled into the rock using a drill bit to make sequential holes in the shape of the number, to show the start of the climb. I have travelled a lot around the world climbing and i thought this was sacrilege in the climbing world. I could not believe that someone would use their drill to do this, leave it permanently marked there right at head height. And they were not small numbers, each digit approx 60mm x 40mm, with an 8mm drill bit.

Anyway i thought i would put this out there in the climbing community to see what others thought.

happy climbing
dalai
10/01/2013
5:07:18 PM
On 10/01/2013 bigfish wrote:

>Anyway on the Sth side of the mountain i found 3 sport
>climbs with the numbers 22, 23 and 22 chiselled into the rock using a drill
>bit to make sequential holes in the shape of the number, to show the start
>of the climb. I have travelled a lot around the world climbing and i
>thought this was sacrilege in the climbing world.

Marking routes isn't uncommon. Usually paint though...

BA
11/01/2013
11:25:29 AM
This photo was taken back in 1981 in the UK at the base of a climb called Corvus. A climb put up so long ago that pictographic carving was used to overcome the limited literacy of the natives.



Superstu
Online Now
11/01/2013
11:39:52 AM
the problem of placing bad bolts... is usually self-rectifying (eventually)


Inscribing the grade of the route with a drill bit? And we wonder why we have access problems in national parks!

I always wonder if successive generations of climbers keep lowering the bar in terms of keeping their impacts under control? Or are climbers generally just environmental vandals, only our tools have got bigger and battery powered?

Why not take a leaf out of Rudy Giuliani's book on preventing further crime (the NY mayor who believed if you fix one broken window, the other windows are less likely to get broken). Get together with a few fellow concerned citizens and head up there with some epoxy, mix in a heap of the local dirt/dust at the bottom of the crag, and patch it all up. I'd come and help but Euglah Rock is a zillion miles away. Nice climbing in a pretty location though.
Access T CliffCare
11/01/2013
12:18:09 PM
On 11/01/2013 Superstu wrote:
>the problem of placing bad bolts... is usually self-rectifying (eventually)
>
>
>Inscribing the grade of the route with a drill bit? And we wonder why
>we have access problems in national parks!
>
>I always wonder if successive generations of climbers keep lowering the
>bar in terms of keeping their impacts under control? Or are climbers generally
>just environmental vandals, only our tools have got bigger and battery
>powered?
>
>Why not take a leaf out of Rudy Giuliani's book on preventing further
>crime (the NY mayor who believed if you fix one broken window, the other
>windows are less likely to get broken). Get together with a few fellow
>concerned citizens and head up there with some epoxy, mix in a heap of
>the local dirt/dust at the bottom of the crag, and patch it all up. I'd
>come and help but Euglah Rock is a zillion miles away. Nice climbing in
>a pretty location though.
>

Yep, this is just the kind of stuff that doesn't go down well at all!
Marking the rock with bolts is a big enough visual problem and one we work with land managers as being a necessary part of some styles of climbing. Marking the climbs and adding more to the visual problem is not something to encourage and it is and will be an issue. I have correspondence to prove it!

I'd hope that the the route marking initials of the past were just that. Whether our old history continues to influence new climbers to do this or climbing overseas at european crags, where route marking is often commonplace, further influences people I'm not sure. But it's not a habit we should be continuing with.

cheers,
Tracey

nmonteith
11/01/2013
1:03:55 PM
The french have turned it into an artform.



Verdon....

vwills
11/01/2013
8:32:29 PM
I was out at Kaputar in October this year and note there has been a steady increase in bolts in the last 3 years. I am not against bolts per se and think the increased number of rap stations especailly at Euglah and Lindsey rocks to be advantageous to protect the stunted growth on both plateaus. It also lets people toprope routes they are not confident leading. However there seems to be an increase in "filler" routes- bolting rock just because it is blank, and a large amount of retrobolting has gone on, especially at Lindsey. There is nothing I can find as to a guide for these.

Rumours I hear are its someone fro North America who visits annually and is obviouslly isnt short of a dollar or two. However the large amount of new anchors atop the very easy routes at Lindsey and a well worn track to that area make me think that locals may be responsible for that area? Anyone have further knowledge?

With specific comments- Euglah has some good bolted routes and direct starts to old crack routes, but I didnt go round the south side. Old routes are already marked with white paint and initials (though very hard to see in places). Chiselling grades is pretty lame. As noted this is national park!

Lindsey has unfortunately had heaps of routes retrobolted. I recall leading Pork Orgy, 21, when it was run out and scary with only 2 carrots and it was quite memorable. Now it has expansions every few metres and is just another average sports route. It was always easily topropeable (even without the new anchors). Several other filler routes have been done which are pretty average and other routes retrobolted into submission. Fortunately the 2 trad cracks, Mistaken and Misled have been left alone and though I'd done them before are by far the most memorable and best routes at the crag (though the 22 arete between them is still old school and memorable with its old bolts- long live this route in its current state!) I wonder whether Ian Brown has ever been contacted about this situation??

The Governor has a few more rap stations which isnt too bad, but some new sports climbs are up near the left hand end of the cliff. (I felt compelled to do them before passing judgement) and I dont think they add anything to the crag. In such an obvious place it could well have done without these routes.

Better go, computer making photophobia worse. A week before I leave for South America and end up in hospital with viral meningitis! It sucks lying in a dark room.
One Day Hero
13/01/2013
12:49:02 AM
On 11/01/2013 vwills wrote:

>Rumours I hear are its someone from North America who visits annually and
>is obviously isn't short of a dollar or two.

Don't beat about the bush. It's (expat British) Canadian surgeon Robin Barley. The man is an arsehole, but he's the type of arsehole who I get along with very well. The reason he's bolting Kaputar is that he has a daughter living nearby, and migrates annually to avoid the rainy hell which is British Columbia in November/December.

The story of how I met Robin is pretty funny, but I couldn't be stuffed writing it down now (it involves the Railway Cliff in the Blueys, me not knowing who the hell this grumpy old prick was, the Vancouver couple who I was climbing with knowing exactly who this grumpy old prick was..........and a giant boa constrictor sized turd left in ambush on a ledge!)

Here's an inside tip; politely laying out the facts and making a reasonable request that he change his bolting behaviour is likely to net very poor results. Chopping all the bolts you don't like, then calling him a rude name will possibly work.......but many advocates of bolting moderation at Squamish have been defeated by his legendary stubbornness.
bigfish
13/01/2013
11:31:22 AM
All things considered, bolting badly is one thing. Like you said they can be chopped and or repaired with new bolts.

But using your drill to deface the wall at head height, with large numbers permanently is not very ethical. The only way to get rid of it would be with a jackhammer, now that is another call.

I think the amount of effort route setters put into making bolts less obvious by painting them or only using bolts instead of F/H is a sign that we don't want it to disturb the parks too much.

Seriously there is a huge difference between marking a route with a little bit of paint or a small plaque as in europe to drilling in sequential holes to make a huge number 22 or 23. In deep into the rock face.

And i don't think that would be accepted at any crag, not at frog, blueys, araps, coolum, anywhere
Damo666
13/01/2013
11:44:01 AM
On 13/01/2013 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 11/01/2013 vwills wrote:
>
>>Rumours I hear are its someone from North America who visits annually
>and
>>is obviously isn't short of a dollar or two.
>
>Don't beat about the bush. It's (expat British) Canadian surgeon Robin
>Barley.

You might remember him from such threads as http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1463742

vwills
16/01/2013
11:43:34 AM
On 13/01/2013 One Day Hero wrote:

>>Rumours I hear are its someone from North America who visits annually
>and
>>is obviously isn't short of a dollar or two.
>
>Don't beat about the bush. It's (expat British) Canadian surgeon Robin
>Barley.

Didnt know that, but the rumour was quite accurate apparently. But get your facts right ODH- hes an anesthesiologist, not a surgeon (surgeons are stingy tightwads and dont grid bolt).
Got his contact details from your love in?
ChossDog
20/01/2013
7:42:05 PM
G'day Vanessa (we met in the Darrans a few years back I think) 'n' all. I almost never go on this forum because of the crap but an old colleague told me someone had mentioned that singer from the Stone Roses in a dispatch....and I'm pretty sure he's never been to Kaputar.

I can answer Vanessa's question - no-one has ever approached me about bolting on Lindsay. And I can answer your implied question too - if any of my routes have been retro-bolted I'll be very pissed off! (not that it would bother the likely perp, by the sounds of it) and if I happen to be passing that way I'll pack my hacksaw.

And I can't understand what a bolt would be doing on The Last Waltz, unless it was seriously lost while looking for something unprotectable. My attitude to retro-bolting is simple - I would even disagree with it if I was somehow persuaded to agree to it on a specific climb. Its an equal opportunity thing. Its not as if there aren't enough sport routes in the world, but scary old trad routes, well they're becoming an endangered species. And if anyone thinks the pendulum won't swing back then they need to read a bit of history. And what self-respecting bit of cliff ever begged to be made 'popular' anyway?. Then there's the historical aspect. But I guess this is all a bit too philosophical for the fast food climber and their noble mission to tame everything.

Happy and safe climbing, Ian

vwills
21/01/2013
1:34:53 PM
Hi Ian,
Still yet to get back to the Darrans in good weather in summer (have tried twice since that first visit)- though had great ice last July.
Been to Kaputar a few times recently. The place grows on you esp once you master the language of the guide book recommendations :) Thunderbirds are Go was great chossy heart in mouth adventure with the 15 min approach taking 45 min with a rappel off a tree (got lost the first time I triedto find it 5 years ago.) The Orgasmatron- "voluptuous rock"!!? :) Malice through the looking glass and Borrowed Time were 2 stand outs from the last visit.

Its likely to have been the last 12 months that Lindsey got done over big time. It was pretty appalling. Deep Water has been bolted fully. There are lines of bolts eitherside of Torpid (these routes were OK though unecessary and dont seem to replace existing routes). Pork Orgy fully retrobolted. Miss Muffet made obsolete by new bolted line and another contrived variant on other side of arete.Sanity Clause, Rack and Ruin and Gobbledegook and Age of reason all have been turned into sports climbs.
The Idle Rich had 2 bolts (changes to that route go back a few years) as does a route near Deadly nightshade. There are a few other routes that seemed to be actual new routes of value (albeit sports routes) that go back at least 2 years.


At Euglah the Last Waltz/ Fantastic Four start has been effectively "retroed" with a bolt as there is now a direct start to the 23, Pink Slip. This is actually a good climb with 3 bolts on the slab then into the crack on gear. The Last Waltz itself is really untouched and the starting bolt doesnt change the character of the route. This rebolting is at least a few years old, but many other aretes have been done more recently.

I was interested to see what rangers know but didnt want to inflame a situation so havent asked....
cheers
Vanessa
kieranl
21/01/2013
2:26:51 PM
On 16/01/2013 vwills wrote:
>Didnt know that, but the rumour was quite accurate apparently. But get
>your facts right ODH- hes an anesthesiologist, not a surgeon (surgeons
>are stingy tightwads and dont grid bolt).
A physician, radiologist, surgeon and pathologist are out duck shooting when they see a bird overhead.
The physician considers its shape, size and movement patterns trying to work out if it is a duck.
The radiologist takes a photo of the bird and begins to zoom in to see if it's a duck.
The surgeon aims his gun and shoots the bird then turns to the pathologist : "Have a look at it and tell me if it's a duck"

rocksinmyhead
22/01/2013
12:32:06 AM
On 16/01/2013 vwills wrote:
>get your facts right ODH- ......surgeons.... dont grid bolt.
>

Rubbish! Check out my right leg.......




vwills
22/01/2013
9:27:30 AM
Orthopaedic surgeons don't count.

An orthopaedic surgeon, a physician and an anaesthetist are standing in a lift just as the door is closing. A small boy tries to squeeze in but clearly is stuck and about to be crushed by the doors. The physician is paralysed in indecision. The anaesthetist is trying to find the red button to call for assistance. The orthopod sticks his head in the door, thus letting the child squeeze through safely.
The other two look at him- "that was amazing- but why did you use your head?"
The orthopod holds out his hands and looks at the other two incredulously "I cant damage these- I use them to operate!"
hero
22/01/2013
9:38:46 AM
Perhaps for sentimental reasons this is saddest thread ever. Marking climbs was always a tradition at Kaputar - given a lack of guidebooks (imported from New England) but it was mostly discreet. Scratching the grades of a climb (or are they just really crappy names) seems excessive.

As the acknowledged scardy-cattest climber in Australia I am sorry that the Fantastic Four start has been bolted (being first ascentionist) cos it's the only route I ever pulled out my cojones on.

As a result, I'm forced to conclude that modern sport climbers are a bunch of limp d1cked pussies.
One Day Hero
22/01/2013
9:52:03 AM
On 22/01/2013 hero wrote:
>Perhaps for sentimental reasons this is saddest thread ever. Marking climbs
>was always a tradition at Kaputar - given a lack of guidebooks (imported
>from New England) but it was mostly discreet. Scratching the grades of
>a climb (or are they just really crappy names) seems excessive.
>
>As the acknowledged scardy-cattest climber in Australia I am sorry that
>the Fantastic Four start has been bolted (being first ascentionist) cos
>it's the only route I ever pulled out my cojones on.
>
>As a result, I'm forced to conclude that modern sport climbers are a bunch
>of limp d1cked pussies.
>

Hero, don't just sit there being sad like a pussy, get out and do something about it. The gridbolters are trying to take over everything, get out and fight or you're just one more softc--k who sort of cared about something but not enough to actually try to help.
hero
22/01/2013
10:56:54 AM
Abuse from ODH. That means so much to me.

Nearest cliff to me is Booroomba. I'll bring my puller shall I? We can have a day out.

One Day Hero
22/01/2013
11:12:31 AM
I think of it more as motivational speaking than abuse :) Seriously, if there's any bolts in N.S.W. which piss you off, now would be a very good time to chop 'em. We're going to pull the reigns in a bit on the crazy development (sane bolters have nothing to worry about). Any help in getting the message across would be appreciated.

 Page 1 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 96
There are 96 messages in this topic.

 

Home | Guide | Gallery | Tech Tips | Articles | Reviews | Dictionary | Forum | Links | About | Search
Chockstone Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography

Please read the full disclaimer before using any information contained on these pages.



Australian Panoramic | Australian Coast | Australian Mountains | Australian Countryside | Australian Waterfalls | Australian Lakes | Australian Cities | Australian Macro | Australian Wildlife
Landscape Photo | Landscape Photography | Landscape Photography Australia | Fine Art Photography | Wilderness Photography | Nature Photo | Australian Landscape Photo | Stock Photography Australia | Landscape Photos | Panoramic Photos | Panoramic Photography Australia | Australian Landscape Photography | Mothers Day Gifts | Gifts for Mothers Day | Mothers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Mothers Day | Wedding Gift Ideas | Christmas Gift Ideas | Fathers Day Gifts | Gifts for Fathers Day | Fathers Day Gift Ideas | Ideas for Fathers Day | Landscape Prints | Landscape Poster | Limited Edition Prints | Panoramic Photo | Buy Posters | Poster Prints