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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 58
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Southwest You Yangs Gravel Pit Tor (General) [ You Yangs Guide | Images ] 

Author
The first bolt on Question of Ethics (You Yangs)
dalai
2/11/2012
10:28:55 AM
On 2/11/2012 JDB wrote:
>Boy, I must be thick, the penny has now dropped. I get it now........
>The first ascentionist(s) have a god given right to a piece of rock that
>they do not own, irrespective of the decisions they make regarding fixed
>protection.
>So by extrapolation, if Wolfgang Gullich placed one bolt at 2/3 height
>on Punks, all repeat aspirants should : top rope, re-write their wills,
>inflate a jumping castle underneath, attach the draw/rope with a cherry
>picker on one of the nicest pieces of rock at Arapiles for time immemorial.

You are arguing over a climb bolted 30+??? years ago, that has had probably thousands of ascents over that time as it currently stands. Iíve probably run up it half a dozen times myself and it has never bothered me.

At least it has three bolts. I've lead Magnetic Attraction to it's left but was never willing to lead Mean Streak to the right of A Question of Ethics. Never contemplated retro bolting it just because I didn't want to lead it in its current form.

A couple of people donít like that the first bolt is higher than they feel comfortable climbing to so want it changedÖ Stick clip the first bolt if you are concerned.

By the way, Gullich didn't bolt Punks... And if that's how it was equiped so be it.

The good Dr
2/11/2012
11:17:08 AM
On 2/11/2012 gfdonc wrote:

>Stick-clipping is top-roping.

So is climbing with gear clipped above your waist.

Leave it as is, as the route name says it all. Retrobolting will just make the name stupid, whereas now it has some succinct relevance. You choose your style of ascent and tactics.
JDB
2/11/2012
11:21:26 AM
You make some good points, Dalai (I thought you were in exile)
Seriously though - if Magetic Attraction, QoE and Mean Streak all had a well positioned first bolt the masses would be much appreciative, and to those with big bollocks or bravery, they can just skip the first bolt.
egosan
2/11/2012
11:57:43 AM
On 2/11/2012 JDB wrote:
>You make some good points, Dalai (I thought you were in exile)
>Seriously though - if Magetic Attraction, QoE and Mean Streak all had
>a well positioned first bolt the masses would be much appreciative, and
>to those with big bollocks or bravery, they can just skip the first bolt.

Christ Almighty! Now you have me taking the Lord's name in vain!
Looking up from the ground at a potential 4.5m fall and deciding to step off the ground is a very different experience to looking up at the same climb with the option of piking out.

That you can't see the difference or you won't accept that other people might see it differently suggests a lack of empathy and imagination on your part. I really like that some climbs require that spicy commitment. At the same time it is completely understandable that for most people those climbs are not at all attractive.

The problem is that there are never arguments here on chockstone about someone overbolting a route and some smart ass suggesting that a retro chopping will make the route more appealing to the masses. These discussions only go the other way.

Fuck that! There is plenty of rock out there. There are plenty of happy safe routes to dog up. If the masses need another well bolted crumbly granite slab, go bolt a new route. There is plenty of crumbly granite to go around.

Miguel75
2/11/2012
12:02:15 PM
On 2/11/2012 JDB wrote:
>You make some good points, Dalai (I thought you were in exile)
>Seriously though - if Magetic Attraction, QoE and Mean Streak all had
>a well positioned first bolt the masses would be much appreciative, and
>to those with big bollocks or bravery, they can just skip the first bolt.

Macciza makes some great point in the recent Bluies rebolting thread;

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=15&MessageID=21646&PagePos=0&Sort=&Replies=399&MsgPagePos=80

I can't be bothered reading through all 399 posts to find the appropriate one (though there are more than one great posts from many people). Having a new user friendly bolt will in all likely hood increase traffic on the route mentioned though there's nothing wrong with having bold routes as inspiration to improve. Putting a new bolt in and then saying those with the bollocks, or bravery can skip it doesn't make sense because the added bolt removes the mental challenge as there's now a way out! Sure, you can skip the bolt, but it's still there and it's not the same 'exposure' (?)...

There are plenty of user friendly routes out there, though not all of them need to be...
BA
2/11/2012
12:12:30 PM
On 2/11/2012 JDB wrote:

>to those withOUT big bollocks or bravery, they can just skip the first bolt. CLIMB

goshen
2/11/2012
12:35:11 PM
damn right. Mean Streak is one of the more memorable climbs at the YY precisely because it is exciting, and that not many people get to have that experience because they are mentally inadequate for such a climb.

Macciza
2/11/2012
12:37:34 PM
On 2/11/2012 BA wrote:
>>to those withOUT big bollocks or bravery, they can just skip the
>first bolt. CLIMB

What he said . . .
lfranklin
2/11/2012
12:50:00 PM
It is a great climb. One of the best I've done at the YY. However it really does need another bolt. It's steep and consistent and a really nice climb.
SBW
2/11/2012
12:51:26 PM
On 2/11/2012 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 2/11/2012 JDB wrote:
>>Boy, I must be thick, the penny has now dropped. I get it now........
>
>Maybe not?
>
>The name of the climb gives the game away*,... and two other things would
>help; a warning in the route description; and using your own visual assessment
>at the base of the climb to see if you want that kind of 'challenge'.
>
>What I'd like to know is how the first ascentionists did it.
>
>Did they bolt on lead?
>Did they abseil bolt it and possibly preclip it at the same time?
>Did they stick clip it?
>Did they lead it as it currently stands after having bolted it sometime
>previously

and

Did they work the moves on top rope?

Personally I think it should be left as it is. When I first went to lead it and saw the bolt I just walked away.

Returned and did it when I had a bit more confidence.
mikllaw
2/11/2012
1:50:23 PM
I always thought it was named A Question of Ethics because it was regarded as being overbolted when it was put up.
gfdonc
2/11/2012
2:32:15 PM
The real sad truth is, I was going to put 5 in, but couldn't be fuc&ed hand-drilling that many bolts in granite. So I worked out I could get away with 3 without risking death. The title was tongue-in-cheek.

And for M9's questions:
Yes it was checked on abseil first to work out the placements.
No it wasn't drilled on lead.
No it wasn't preclipped or stick-clipped during the FA.

Climboholic
2/11/2012
2:50:29 PM
On 2/11/2012 egosan wrote:
>On 2/11/2012 JDB wrote:
>>You make some good points, Dalai (I thought you were in exile)
>>Seriously though - if Magetic Attraction, QoE and Mean Streak all had
>>a well positioned first bolt the masses would be much appreciative, and
>>to those with big bollocks or bravery, they can just skip the first bolt.
>
>Christ Almighty! Now you have me taking the Lord's name in vain!...

Exactly my reaction. Except my involuntary reaction included an expletive: "OMFG!"

JDB: Your comment about skipping the first bolt just took away any credability from your argument.
dalai
2/11/2012
2:52:57 PM
On 2/11/2012 mikllaw wrote:
>I always thought it was named A Question of Ethics because it was regarded
>as being overbolted when it was put up.

Agreed. Hence Tempest's reply FA on the other side of the outcrop he named 'No Question' led without bolts.
mikllaw
2/11/2012
5:07:30 PM
On 2/11/2012 dalai wrote:
>On 2/11/2012 mikllaw wrote:
>>I always thought it was named A Question of Ethics because it was regarded
>>as being overbolted when it was put up.
>
>Agreed. Hence Tempest's reply FA on the other side of the outcrop he named
>'No Question' led without bolts.

... although gfdonc may have the final word here...
Dave C
2/11/2012
5:48:24 PM
On 2/11/2012 rolsen1 wrote:
>On 1/11/2012 Dave C wrote:
>>Personally, I would seriously think of dragging myself up the road
>>to remove any extra bolt that appears on QoE, it's one of only a few
>routes
>>in the You-Yangs with any real character and I would not like it to be
>>reduced to an easy sport-route.
>
>
>Clearly it is not going to be retro'd with gdfonc's attitude and your
>threats to remove a bolt that doesn't exist add nothing to this discussion.
>
>Having said that none of the arguments in this thread make sense. How
>can anyone justify the best climb at it's grade in the youies needing to
>be either stick clipped or require a pad. The fact that Carrigan is stick
>clipping the climb speaks volumes, the fact that you know more than one
>person who has hobbled away after falling before the first bolt isn't good
>enough. The best climb at the grade doesn't need "real character" it has
>enough going for it. Adding a single bolt wouldn't make it an "easy sport
>route" it would just mean it could be climbed like all other climbs at
>the grade at the youies, without a cheat stick or a pad.
>
>Also, I bet the climbs on the other side of the Tor get a lot more leads,
>not because they are better climbs but because they don't need extra things
>to climb them safely.


Me thinks you doth complain too much. Just a few points in reply:
1. There are one or two people making enough noise that they may think about adding a bolt. I am not threatening anything, but you can be sure any retro bolt added is likely to be removed - by somebody else if not by me.

2. Whether you think I have "added to the discussion" really doesn't concern me, it's my local area (very, very local in fact) and QoE is one of the few really interesting little routes there and does not need re-packaging for popular consumption. I am in total agreement with Dalai, BA et al.

3. Kim was not stick-clipping the route for himself, he was doing it so his then girlfriend could have a crack at it without doing what was then a very loose start due to fire damage from the previous summer. In fact I think Kim had actually soloed it earlier in the day (gulp!) - although it may have been Steve Monks who I think was around that day as well.

Finally, could Mikl please explain why he only put one bolt in Mean Streak!!!??? I made it to the bolt once from the ground but bailed out without much further ado.

mikllaw
2/11/2012
8:00:26 PM
On 2/11/2012 Dave C wrote:
>Finally, could Mikl please explain why he only put one bolt in Mean Streak!!!???
>I made it to the bolt once from the ground but bailed out without much
>further ado.

Ignorance, innocence, and insecurity
I could only afford 1 bolt per week back then.
I'd be happy for someone to make it similar to QoE, is the route any good, I have no memory of ever climbing there of course.
rolsen1
5/11/2012
4:39:10 PM
On 2/11/2012 gfdonc wrote:
>The photo is classic! Thanks for that.
>
>On 2/11/2012 rolsen1 wrote:
>>Clearly it is not going to be retro'd with gdfonc's attitude
>
>Actually I was serious. I suggested adding a bolt when Neil replaced
>the original carrots a while back but received enough negative reaction
>to leave it as-is. Sounds like we're at the same point again.
>
>Stick-clipping is top-roping.
>
>

Well that is interesting, sorry.

I agree that stick clipping is top roping, and adding a mat is just stupid.

Despite all the posturing (from others), I think bolting climbs sensibly (and yes obviously that is open to interpretation) is essential to maintaining and growing the climbing culture and ethic here in Victoria. I think it is great that we have an onsight culture, a minimal (read, not over bolted) bolting culture and (dare I say it) a carrot bolt culture.

Under bolting (great) climbs does as much damage to this culture as over bolting. If we want to maintain and strengthen what we have we should rage against both, somehow I think egos for most will get in the way.

Ben_E
5/11/2012
7:24:21 PM
Sigh. You had me up until the carrot bit there. Other than that, I fully concur.
dalai
5/11/2012
8:37:25 PM
On 5/11/2012 rolsen1 wrote:
>I think bolting climbs sensibly (and yes obviously that is open to interpretation)

That's the thing; most people have been fine with the bolting of this climb. Even if you doubled the number of bolts on this climb or others, there will be some who will still feel it is too run out!

The start requires you to concentrate as does the rest of the climb. Perfectly bolted IMO.

 Page 2 of 3. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 58
There are 58 messages in this topic.

 

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