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Crag & Route Beta

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VIC Grampians	(General)	(General)	(General)	[ Grampians Guide \| Images ]

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Big Cave

Nottobetaken

13-Jun-2006
12:29:19 PM

On 13/06/2006 simey wrote:
>There are two bolts placed at lower-offs
>for a purpose.

- Tell that to the idiots that initially equipped The Invisible Fist!


nmonteith

13-Jun-2006
12:38:44 PM

or any route in the Frankenjura...

simey

13-Jun-2006
1:00:43 PM

On 13/06/2006 Boardlord wrote:
>On 13/06/2006 simey wrote:
>>There are two bolts placed at lower-offs for a purpose.

>- Tell that to the idiots that initially equipped The Invisible Fist!

Well, what do you expect from Gordy? He isn't exactly renowned for his well thought-out and well-executed bolting endeavours.

climbingjac

13-Jun-2006
2:43:54 PM

On 13/06/2006 dalai wrote:
>My personal preference though, especially on well travelled routes
>is for the use of long lasting alternatives (easily replaceable stainless
>expansions etc).

Yep me too. The tat on the Lowdown at Araps is busily hacking away at itself. Nice.

uwhp510

13-Jun-2006
3:37:25 PM

On 13/06/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>Yep the Grampians is certainly 99.99% a sport crag.

I know it's not quite there yet but if we all get together we can make it happen people.

simey

13-Jun-2006
4:59:59 PM

On 13/06/2006 climbingjac wrote:
>The tat on the Lowdown at Araps is busily hacking away at itself. Nice.

The tat on The Lowdown has only existed in recent years. It was never part of the route and is completely uneccessary as there are good placements just above.

climbingjac

13-Jun-2006
5:01:39 PM

On 13/06/2006 simey wrote:
>The tat on The Lowdown has only existed in recent years. It was never
>part of the route and is completely uneccessary as there are good placements
>just above.

Down with the tat!! :-)

estherrenita_

14-Jun-2006
3:09:05 AM

On 9/06/2006 simey wrote:
>Pegs utilise natural features of the rock and are usually less of an eye
>sore.
>
>Well placed pegs are bloody solid.
>
>Pegs can be replaced more easily than most bolts.

This may be true, but if thinking about generations of use, the peg is somewhat questionable. The idea of future generations climbing on pin scars rather than the initial route is particularly slim.
Considering that Europeans seem to be able to place safe bolts (as Neil pointed out > in the Frankenjura one always lowers of a single bolt), i find the romanticism of "the Australian style" embarrassing. We should be proud of the fantastic rock or ridiculously safe and quality trad climbing, not of un-eduacted or lazy bolting/protection.

> this doesn't mean that i think the cave should be bolted...
es.


Paulie

21-Jun-2006
11:41:57 PM

On 10/06/2006 uwhp510 wrote:
>The fixed tat on Monkey Puzzle should be left since it serves the invaluable
>function of pissing off the euros ("merde, what is zis shit eh?").

LOL, that is so true :D

>Littleidiosyncracies like this (and carrots, odd bits of gear on sport routes
>and dare I say it the odd peg) are part of what makes aussie climbing unique.

I personally prefer to see bomber slings like those in the Gallery replaced (regularly I hasten to add) than bolts added, IMO this adds to the character of the route.

Paul


tmarsh

22-Jun-2006
9:33:23 AM

Chain of Fools and Weaveworld went up in 1991. I rebolted them around 2003. Every single sling placed by the FA team was still on the route. In one spot, two more very dodgy slings had been added by subsequent parties. They were not to the standard of the originals. Half the slings from the two routes were worn to the point that the nylon sling cover and the sheath of the spectra cord within were worn through. In some cases the inner core was more then halfway worn through.

The original thread installations were very well thought out. The materials used were not cheap by any stretch of the imagination. Yet they had degraded to the point of being obviously unsafe. And still no-one replaced them.

Talking up sling placements on the basis that they are replaceable is just bullshit. Whilst it might be possible in theory, in practice it just doesn't happen. Instead what you have is ugly, unsafe tat flapping in the breeze.

On 21/06/2006 Paulie wrote:
>I personally prefer to see bomber slings like those in the Gallery replaced
>(regularly I hasten to add) than bolts added, IMO this adds to the character
>of the route.

It's funny how people like you Paulie write things like 'I personally prefer to see' slings replaced rather than writing 'I personally take an active role in maintaining routes in a manner that retains their character'. Everybody always expects someone else is going to lug the shit up the hill and do it for them. Until people put their money where their mouth is, I suspect we are better off with fixed gear that isn't quite so maintenance intensive.


tnd

22-Jun-2006
11:46:37 AM

On 22/06/2006 tmarsh wrote:
>...Until people put their money where their mouth is,
>I suspect we are better off with fixed gear that isn't quite so maintenance
>intensive.
Exactly! Maintenance sounds good in theory but no-one (especially the people who expound its use) ever does it.


Robb

22-Jun-2006
12:09:01 PM

On 22/06/2006 tmarsh wrote:
>Everybody always expects someone else is going to lug the shit up the hill
>and do it for them. Until people put their money where their mouth is,
>I suspect we are better off with fixed gear that isn't quite so maintenance
>intensive.

just about sums it up Tim. everyone has an opinion. Some back it up with action.....Most Dont

uwhp510

22-Jun-2006
2:49:34 PM

>just about sums it up Tim. everyone has an opinion. Some back it up with
>action.....Most Dont

What do you do if you favour the status quo?

Ronny

22-Jun-2006
4:51:21 PM

On 22/06/2006 uwhp510 wrote:

>What do you do if you favour the status quo?

You take action to maintain the status quo - in this case by replacing the threads.


andyR

24-Jun-2006
10:34:53 AM

On 10/06/2006 Dalai wrote "it's just an eyesore", referring to the fixed sling/tat.

Fair enough then, but what do you call the rest of the chalk splattering practically the entire cave? Artwork? It's a bit rich to accept the full on chalking up of every hold on the one hand, yet condemn as visually intrusive the occasional fixed sling. You can't have it both ways.


tmarsh

25-Jun-2006
9:11:38 PM

If anyone is interested, I dug up an example of the fixed gear from the Gallery. This is a picture of one of the slings I chopped from the gallery when I rebolted Chain of Fools. It's a double loop of spectra cord encased in a nylon sling. The nylon sling is worn through exposing the spectra cord. Each strand of the cord is more than half-way worn through. Failure of either strand will result in failure of the entire placement.

climbingjac

26-Jun-2006
10:58:50 AM

Hmm. A great example of why you don't want to equip a route (whether it be with sling or bolt technology) in such a fashion that there is only ever one piece keeping you off the deck. Heaven help you if it fails...

dalai

26-Jun-2006
5:03:05 PM

On 24/06/2006 ando wrote:
>On 10/06/2006 Dalai wrote "it's just an eyesore", referring to the fixed
>sling/tat.
>
>Fair enough then, but what do you call the rest of the chalk splattering
>practically the entire cave? Artwork? It's a bit rich to accept the full
>on chalking up of every hold on the one hand, yet condemn as visually intrusive
>the occasional fixed sling. You can't have it both ways.

@Ando Please point out where in the previous posts I was condoning the chalk as part of this discussion?

This has been only on fixed protection, and comparing a bolt and a fixed sling - of the two I find the sling far more visually offensive.


andyR

26-Jun-2006
5:59:43 PM

Martin, I don't want to get carried away here! It just seems to me that considering how bloody much of an eyesore the whole cave is anyway, with every damn hold splattered in chalk, that saying one fixed sling is visually intrusive is missing the point, the point being that the whole cave is visually intrusive. I could insert photos to drive the point home, but I'm sure we all know where we're talking about here...

Now I use chalk, so I'm no bloody purist. It would be hypocritical of me to take the moral highground here. I can't climb the routes in the Gallery yet - wish I could! Im working on it!

But I would have thought that even the most core climber - on mature reflection - would have to admit that the place is a mess. Now you're quite right, you didn't say you condoned the use of chalk. So I'm sorry if that is how you're taking it. Please accept my apologies. But given the obvious appearance of this cave - which I'm sure you're aware of - then anyone could point out the obvious...namely that YES i agree, the sling is an eyesore, but then so is the whole bloody cave.

Compared to how THE CAVE looks currently - and isn't that how this whole thread started? it just emphasises the importance of keeping the Red Cave trad. HB has set the standard, so let's stick to it. It's too late for The Gallery - keep this as a sport wall and restrict our abuse to this piece of rock, but let's not spread it to the Red Cave as well. If we want to put new routes up there, make them core trad routes. If you can't do it trad, well...I'm pretty certain Parks Victoria would not be too keen to see the Red Cave turn out looking like The Gallery.

Waddaya reckon? Can we accept that I didn't mean to infer you condoned the use (abuse) of chalk but agree that the whole cave is a bloody eyesore?

I'll tell you what, if you do, and we can work it with the VCC Acess crew, I'll agree to spend a couple of days with whoever trying to clean the built up chalk and tick marks off the rock. Are you up for it?

Cheers,

Ando


greenehands

31-Aug-2006
9:52:42 PM

great idea, perhaps this kind of CLEAN UP idea can be used by everyone at every crag, they are all special places! we need to take care of them

There are 43 messages in this topic.