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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 77
Area Location Sub Location Crag Links
VIC Arapiles Mitre Rock (General) South Mitre [ Arapiles Guide | Arapiles Images ] 

Author
Rap bolts chopped above Serpent
simey
17/04/2012
5:50:41 PM
Would the person(s) who chopped the rap bolts above Serpent like to come forward and explain their actions? This anchor was placed a few weeks ago as the second pitch is a worthless scramble which added nothing to the route. It seems strange that this anchor was singled out for chopping, therefore it would be good to understand the reasoning behind it.
chalkischeap
17/04/2012
8:35:48 PM
Possible explanations:

Not needed for the last several decades.
Would you stop trying to 'improve' the place, I like it as it is.
Would the person who placed the bolts like to make their case (maybe before drilling next time).
Its gettin' a bit bolty at Araps.
Too many rap points, just walk off - it won't kill you.
One mistake abseiling and you're strawberry jam.
I like using my lovely cams & wires at Australia's world famous trad crag.
The thin end of the wedge is getting thicker.

A few insights into the mindset of your typical bolt chopper - plenty of reasons there, take your pick.
kieranl
17/04/2012
9:18:25 PM
Primary reason for placing them was to reduce traffic and erosion pressure in the gully to the top and incidentally on the descent track.
If you like Arapiles as it is you might recognise this as a way of preserving it.
Whoever has stolen the anchors should return them. I hope they actually removed them properly without further damage to the rock.
* post-edit *
On 17/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>Too many rap points, just walk off - it won't kill you.
No, but it is killing the vegetation in the gully above Serpent.
One Day Hero
17/04/2012
9:37:50 PM
I don't know the route in question, but also reckon there's too many retro bolt anchors at araps. You aren't going to get to have it all your way Kieran, if you don't consult before putting these things in, don't expect to be consulted when they're pulled out.

Also, pulled bolts are booty just like stuck wires, asking for them back is pretty poor form.
chalkischeap
17/04/2012
9:43:16 PM
In the interests of balance:

Rap bolts reduce erosion on descent routes (nice play of the green card Kieran).
Saves time.
A handy amenity for instructors.
No trashing your new Evolvs on the walk down.
Teaches people to abseil? (struggling a bit now)
kieranl
17/04/2012
9:47:33 PM
On 17/04/2012 One Day Hero wrote:
>I don't know the route in question, but also reckon there's too many retro
>bolt anchors at araps. You aren't going to get to have it all your way
>Kieran, if you don't consult before putting these things in, don't expect
>to be consulted when they're pulled out.
As I've said elsewhere, if you're prepared to put them in you've got to be prepared to have them taken out.
>
>Also, pulled bolts are booty just like stuck wires, asking for them back
>is pretty poor form.
No I want the chain back to return to the person who donated it. Not returning it is theft pure and simple.
kieranl
17/04/2012
9:52:08 PM
On 17/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>In the interests of balance:
>
>Rap bolts reduce erosion on descent routes (nice play of the green card
>Kieran).
That has me livid. My motive for placing them was primarily for erosion protection.
What makes you think you know me better than that?
chalkischeap
17/04/2012
10:05:40 PM
You have used a green justification. That's fine and noble. Relax man.

There is a problem however in that more bolts = more people = general environmental degradation in the area.

It isn't easy being green.

The good Dr
17/04/2012
10:05:48 PM
On 17/04/2012 kieranl wrote:
>On 17/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>>In the interests of balance:
>>
>>Rap bolts reduce erosion on descent routes (nice play of the green card
>>Kieran).
>That has me livid. My motive for placing them was primarily for erosion
>protection.
>What makes you think you know me better than that?
>

Erosion in gullies is an issue as gullies are often the locations with more protection for plants which need these environments to prosper. Gullies are much rarer as an ecosystem than the plain rock, rock shelves, forested slopes etc. they also are more erosion prone. Some great examples of the erosion reduction in gullies can be sen in a number of places at Arapiles. The most notable example for me is the track that was used for descent form the Agamemnon area on the right. This was pretty trashed 15 years ago, it has recovered really well now.
kieranl
17/04/2012
10:14:18 PM
On 17/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>You have used a green justification. That's fine and noble. Relax man.
Now it's f-n white-hot rage. To the best of my knowledge I don't know you but you see fit to sneer at me by name and questioning my motivation. What gives you that right?
chalkischeap
17/04/2012
10:18:31 PM
You are reading this wrong. There is no sarcasm or sneering in my words. I accept that you have done this for a sound environmental reason and thats fine.
simey
17/04/2012
10:21:10 PM
On 17/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>Possible explanations:
>
>Not needed for the last several decades.
People have climbed Serpent for decades without the rap anchor above the main pitch, but I also recall plenty of climbers complaining that they thought the second pitch was a waste of time.

>Would you stop trying to 'improve' the place, I like it as it is.
Which version do you like? Is the 2012 version not to your liking? Would you rather we go back to the 1980's version with shitty carrots and fixed wires and undergraded routes and dangerous descents and very little vegetation around the base of the mountain?

>Would the person who placed the bolts like to make their case (maybe before drilling next time).
The placement of this anchor was discussed with quite a few local climbers.

>Its gettin' a bit bolty at Araps.
Well my rack seems to get a hammering every time I visit Arapiles. And I seem to be finding myself above natural gear just as much as I used to 25 years ago. Sure there are a few more fixed anchors at the top of cliffs, but I still seem to be rigging all-natural belays on the majority of climbs.

>Too many rap points, just walk off - it won't kill you.
Actually scrambling descents are more likely to kill you. And there are still a lot of walk-offs at Arapiles.

>One mistake abseiling and you're strawberry jam.
The same can be said for climbing the route, or the scramble out (and I would argue that the scramble out is potentially a lot more dangerous than abseiling).

>I like using my lovely cams & wires at Australia's world famous trad crag.
Don't worry, you have stacks of opportunity to still place them in far more critical situations. And the rap bolts would have allowed you to jump on another trad climb a lot sooner as opposed to spending your time scrambling out and walking down.

>The thin end of the wedge is getting thicker.
Poor call. Rap anchors have been placed at Arapiles in situations where descending a route would take longer than climbing the route, or where dangerous scrambles are involved, or where descent gullies are being eroded. This anchor was replaced in response to all those points.

>A few insights into the mindset of your typical bolt chopper - plenty of reasons there, take your pick.
Why was this rap anchor singled out?
simey
17/04/2012
10:32:29 PM
On 17/04/2012 chalkischeap wrote:
>In the interests of balance:

>A handy amenity for instructors.

I don't think there has been a single bolt placed at Arapiles for commercial benefit. All the popular top-roping cliffs (Dec Crag, Bushranger Bluff, Plaque Area, Deacons Dilemma Area, Hells Bells, Charity Buttress) are pretty much bolt-free. And any bolts that have been placed are usually placed to facilitate safe descent for all climbers.
chalkischeap
17/04/2012
10:47:33 PM
Nicely argued simey (yes really).

Still sounding a bit lazy though.

Miguel75
17/04/2012
10:55:55 PM
As it is/was/should be with surfing, I reckon locals are in a good position to regulate an area. They're on the ground more and (usually) have an areas best interest at heart. Look at Pipe, the Hawaiian proving ground for every surf pro wannabe the world over. For years the wolf pack ruled with an iron fist. Drop ins were not tolerated and punished pretty quickly, sometimes physically. The line up was tightly regulated and it worked. They were able to maintain order, even in the thick of winter swell. Now the demographic has changed, people are more litigious and averse to a beat down and the wolf pack don't/can't regulate pipe like they used to, leading to chaos in the line up.

Anyway, I'm not advocating beatings for bolting or chopping, just reiterating my feeling that locals are in a better position to judge than mere visitors, even if said visitors have been visiting for years...

EDIT; actually I recon if you're gonna chop bolts you'd better do the best chop and patch job, leaving the holes filled and rock looking pristine. I also reckon both bolsters and choppers should own up to their handiwork.

arniearms
17/04/2012
11:03:40 PM
Silence of the ̶l̶a̶m̶b̶s̶ cams.

A young ̶F̶B̶I̶ CAM cadet must confide in an incarcerated and manipulative ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶e̶r̶ krusher to receive his help on catching another serial ̶k̶i̶l̶l̶e̶r̶ bolter who ̶s̶k̶i̶n̶s̶ drills his victims.

Ok, I've had my fun... :)

But if there was a vote option I'd vote for leaving the rap chain, sounds like it enhances an already great area.

phillipivan
17/04/2012
11:05:21 PM
On 17/04/2012 Miguel75 wrote:
>I also reckon both bolsters and choppers should own up to their handiwork.

Bingo!
anthonycuskelly
18/04/2012
10:03:28 AM
An opinion from a non-local permabumbly who's never placed a bolt, knows Kieran only by name and has only met Simey via commercial transactions, but has done Serpent recently(ish)...
- the second pitch is rubbish (minor point)
- the walk-offs at Mitre are (in a few cases) showing their traffic, so a couple of bolts is significantly less damage than a few hundred people walking down.
- other than rap anchors, I've only clipped or unclipped a couple of bolts at Araps (not exactly bolty), and most climbs are still natural anchors on top.
- Serpent traverses a bit, it's not going to help the commercial operators toprope it.
- chopping/pulling the anchor isn't undoing anything.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
18/04/2012
11:27:40 AM
On 17/04/2012 Miguel75 wrote:
>As it is/was/should be with surfing, I reckon locals are in a good position to regulate an area. They're on the ground more and (usually) have an areas best interest at heart.

… but this doesn't stop some of them being greedy, or intolerant.
I know this because I used to be one of the less tolerant ones.

>Look at Pipe, the Hawaiian proving ground for every surf pro wannabe the world over. For years the wolf pack ruled with an iron fist. Drop ins were not tolerated and punished pretty quickly, sometimes physically. The line up was tightly regulated and it worked. They were able to maintain order, even in the thick of winter swell.

The wave itself regulates 75% (or more), of the wannabe pack who think they can surf it.
'Heavy' locals did enough to get a reputation, but once established, it did not take much maintaining; and in my experience those that got beat-on (particularly in the late 70's), generally deserved it!!

In my experience respect for both the locals and the wave pays dividends.
I doubt drop-ins are tolerated any more these days than they were back then.

>Now the demographic has changed, people are more litigious and averse to a beat down and the wolf pack don't/can't regulate pipe like they used to, leading to chaos in the line up.

There has always been chaos in that lineup. Nothing has changed.

In my opinion most problems arose on the smaller swell days (note: Pipeline still takes a decent size and generally specific swell direction to 'work' at all…), because of misinterpretations of the drop-in rule.
I found most yanks regard whoever gets to their feet first as having right of way, regardless of whether they are further down the line from the optimum takeoff point. The problem with this at Pipeline, is that by the time a potential drop-in realises that they may get run over by someone already 'inside', it is too late for them to pull out without getting sucked over the falls, so they 'go for it anyway' often with disasterous consequence. If they did actually have any significant surfing ability and were taking off closer to another already on the inside, then it was not unusual for the inside person to get 'faded into the pit'…

>Anyway, I'm not advocating beatings for bolting or chopping, just reiterating
>my feeling that locals are in a better position to judge than mere visitors,
>even if said visitors have been visiting for years...
>
Ah go on. You know you really want to beat on someone don't you. ~> If you can't get to Araps soon, you can always give your keyboard a workout on chocky like I am doing now! Are you feeling it?
;-)

>EDIT; actually I recon if you're gonna chop bolts you'd better do the
>best chop and patch job, leaving the holes filled and rock looking pristine.
>I also reckon both bolsters and choppers should own up to their handiwork.

Your edit was just so you can identify the right person to beat on!
Heh, heh, heh.
TonyB
18/04/2012
12:21:03 PM
Talk about a storm in a tea cup. How's this for environmental damage ?
http://museumvictoria.com.au/collections/itemimages/147/204/147204_medium.jpg

Where should the choppers start ?

 Page 1 of 4. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 77
There are 77 messages in this topic.

 

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