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Chockstone Forum - Crag & Route Beta

Crag & Route Beta

 Page 4 of 5. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 81
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VIC Arapiles (General) (General) (General) [ Arapiles Guide | Arapiles Images ] 

Author
First trad lead recommendations at Araps?
climbingjac
12/04/2011
11:20:29 PM
Why not pop your new leader on two ropes: a lead rope and also a toprope. That way they are learning the placements without sketching and risking a ground fall if they got it wrong.
simey
13/04/2011
8:34:28 AM
On 12/04/2011 climbingjac wrote:
>Why not pop your new leader on two ropes: a lead rope and also a toprope.
> That way they are learning the placements without sketching and risking
>a ground fall if they got it wrong.

It's a technique worth using if you don't have good beginner easy routes to introduce people to leading, but otherwise it seems a bit 'pretend'.
simey
13/04/2011
8:40:12 AM
On 11/04/2011 Sabu wrote:
>On 11/04/2011 Linze wrote:
>>...how about trapeze? just tell em they will need to use a couple of slings to prevent rope drag

>No way! The combination of an undercut wall, need for careful footwork, rope drag and the mere fact they have to traverse instead of climb up could lead to an unpleasant experience for all should it go pear shaped!

Actually Trapeze is a good early lead for beginners if you are supervising the climber. Trapeze provides all sorts of problems which are perfect for a beginner leader to learn from and a bolt protects the crux. Because the difficulties are close to the ground it is easy to communicate with the leader and provide advice.

Gavo
13/04/2011
8:50:34 AM
I learnt to lead without a top rope.


Did a 14 and jumped off at the top (with a bomber nut) in the first few days and it was friggin awesome. I recommend no top-rope if they can... theyre going to have to face it sooner or later and with the top-rope I feel the reality is taken away from it... For me at least (and I admit, everyones different) I believe you want to put in PROPERLY good gear in a solid effort, if your ass is literally on the line.

Of course with that comes the caveat that they should practice and be checked in a variety of placements before they even leave the ground so ensure they have the idea right...

I dont know, I guess Im still bumbly but I really liked the way I did it and the fact I didnt use top-rope and so on. Seems the way to go for me?
simey
13/04/2011
8:54:00 AM
On 12/04/2011 Sarah Gara wrote:
>I recall you saying ...em yeah huh maybe I was being a bit lazy. maybe
>that wasn't the best choice. I don't think he was abjectly petrified but
>certainly scared/nervous. He defo commented that he prefered little revolver
>crack. I think he was going to buy that rack regardless too - he'd been
>looking on gear express for ages. and wh you getting so defensive anyway?
>
>And you didn't know he was going to climb confidently either he could
>have freaked out. but I agree he does and it was all fine - but you fully
>admitted to me afterwards that you could have picked a better route. .

I acknowledged that I had fast-tracked him by putting him on Camalot and that it wouldn't be my normal approach. However I knew him well enough to know that he wouldn't freak out and even if he did, I would have already ensured that he had placed so much gear along the way, that he really wouldn't be in a dangerous situation.

Afterwards I emphasised to him that he should focus on doing lots of quality routes below grade 10 to practise his gear placements and belays before progressing onto routes harder than Camalot.
Wendy
13/04/2011
8:54:31 AM
On 13/04/2011 simey wrote:
>On 11/04/2011 Sabu wrote:
>>On 11/04/2011 Linze wrote:
>>>...how about trapeze? just tell em they will need to use a couple of
>slings to prevent rope drag
>
>>No way! The combination of an undercut wall, need for careful footwork,
>rope drag and the mere fact they have to traverse instead of climb up could
>lead to an unpleasant experience for all should it go pear shaped!
>
>Actually Trapeze is a good early lead for beginners if you are supervising
>the climber. Trapeze provides all sorts of problems which are perfect for
>a beginner leader to learn from and a bolt protects the crux. Because the
>difficulties are close to the ground it is easy to communicate with the
>leader and provide advice.

What, like don't fall now, it will be really ugly? Have you ever seen anyone fall onto the bolt from near the end of the traverse? I haven't, but I reckon it could be a nasty fall and it is a long ish way to the next gear. And on a single rope, you need massive slings to avoid drag and pulling gear out upwards, thus continuing the crappy fall potential.
>

Gavo
13/04/2011
8:58:30 AM
My memory might be up to s*$t on this but I thought I managed to squeeze in a few pieces of gear on that traverse...

EDIT: just checked a photo I have of me on it and yes I did squeeze in a small wire around halfway through it. Might have been crappy but its there, and then another just towards the end of the traverse and another almost immediately as I started going upward.
grangrump
13/04/2011
9:01:42 AM
On 13/04/2011 simey wrote:
>On 12/04/2011 climbingjac wrote:
>>Why not pop your new leader on two ropes: a lead rope and also a toprope.
>> That way they are learning the placements without sketching and risking a ground fall if they got it wrong.
>It's a technique worth using if you don't have good beginner easy routes
>to introduce people to leading, but otherwise it seems a bit 'pretend'.

Depends if person is learning to place gear or learning to lead, which are distinct and preferably sequential. For the first phase (placing gear) a top rope is good, BUT learner should be aiding (finding, then standing on a placement every meter or so). It is a little frightening to see what pops under bodyweight (and surprising what may hold).
This reduces the pump factor when later (actual leading) trying to work out what size wire / cam etc to put in.
Wendy
13/04/2011
9:01:43 AM
On 13/04/2011 Gavo wrote:
>My memory might be up to s*$t on this but I thought I managed to squeeze
>in a few pieces of gear on that traverse...

I think it's about 1 1/2 m to the next gear (a 3 wire i think), which whilst not really far, is kind of far when you are about 4 m off the ground.

Gavo
13/04/2011
9:05:15 AM
Yep that looks about right.

Should also mention that I screwed up the rope management a bit and did have some drag, nothing too bad though. It was one of my very early leads, not that its an excuse, I still f#$# it up sometimes.

Either way my vote goes for jumping in the deepend.. learn the gear placements on the ground then do some super easy climbs, have someone competent second and check the gear..

Thats how I did it. And even now I still ask my second what they thought of my gear. Dont think Ill ever stop that actually. I want to keep on learning.

EDIT: and a further note, that I dont think Trapeze would be a good first lead... not a very very first lead... It didnt scare me at all but surely traverses of any kind are best avoided for an absolute beginner?
simey
13/04/2011
9:10:20 AM
Most of the epics on Trapeze don't involve the leader, they involve the second, because the leader has done a lousy job in protecting the second.

As for falling off the traverse on lead, I don't think it would be too bad at all. The bolt is above you and the difficulties are mid-point of the traverse. Beginner leaders often struggle with the first few metres which are relatively steep and pumpy to protect. I can't think of too many grade 11's that I would want to fall on anyway.

Sure Wendy you can keep people leading day after day on grades 4-6 at Bushrangers Bluff, but ultimately people need to learn on more challenging climbs, which is best done under the supervision of an experienced instructor.
Wendy
13/04/2011
9:14:15 AM
On 13/04/2011 simey wrote:

>
>Sure Wendy you can keep people leading all day on grades 4-6 at Bushrangers
>Bluff, but ultimately people need to learn on more challenging climbs,
>which is best done under quality supervision.

Which if you are an leggy blond or even just have a nice arse, Simey will volunteer to provide on a regular basis


And there's plenty of room for next step climbs other than camalot and trapeze in the learning spectrum. I don't think either are such great climbs anyway.

Gavo
13/04/2011
9:14:38 AM
I did a 14 at Dec Crag on my second or third day of leading (after having done all the usuals at Bushrangers)... I thought it was friggin awesome.

Not too scary but made me very aware of where I was and what I was doing and had to focus and get it all done. Thats what I jumped off on the top after sticking in a bomber nut too...

I can understand some people might find that really intimidating but I thought it was a great way to go.
simey
13/04/2011
9:19:05 AM
On 13/04/2011 Wendy wrote:
>On 13/04/2011 simey wrote:
>
>>Sure Wendy you can keep people leading all day on grades 4-6 at Bushrangers
>>Bluff, but ultimately people need to learn on more challenging climbs,
>>which is best done under quality supervision.
>
>Which if you are an leggy blond or even just have a nice arse, Simey will
>volunteer to provide on a regular basis

I don't think I necessarily go for blondes.


>And there's plenty of room for next step climbs other than camalot and
>trapeze in the learning spectrum. I don't think either are such great
>climbs anyway.

But they are really good routes for ensuring close supervision.
bl@ke
13/04/2011
10:18:40 AM
Jump off asap

Climboholic
13/04/2011
2:44:16 PM
>On 13/04/2011 simey wrote:
>>Sure Wendy you can keep people leading all day on grades 4-6 at Bushrangers
>>Bluff, but ultimately people need to learn on more challenging climbs,
>>which is best done under quality supervision.

On 13/04/2011 Wendy wrote:
>Which if you are an leggy blond or even just have a nice arse, Simey will
>volunteer to provide on a regular basis

A bit of friendly rivalry between guides?

If I was asked to recommend a guide I would go with Simey. Nothing against Wendy, she seems very safe. But it kinda goes against my attitude towards climbing. I like being a little scared!
simey
13/04/2011
2:51:41 PM
On 13/04/2011 bl@ke wrote:
>Jump off asap

I'm not a fan of getting the leader to take falls. I prefer the motto 'the leader never falls' when introducing people to climbing.

What I definitely do get beginners to practise is holding falls.

If I have a newbie belaying me, then I will climb a few metres off the ground and place some bombproof protection and get the belayer to hold me. I usually safeguard myself by holding onto the other end of the rope just in case the belayer does something wrong. I then try and generate a bit of force in the fall so that the belayer is pulled from their stance. I want them to appreciate the forces involved so they know where to stand and what a fall will feel like.

Likewise at the top of the climb after a newbie has rigged their belay, I will second the climb and check out their belay and where they have positioned themselves. If I am satisfied that the belay won't fail (I'll beef it up if neccessary) I then I tie a knot in the brake end of the rope and downclimb a few metres and get them to hold me falling off. Once again I like to generate some force in the fall. If the belayer gets ripped from their stance then they will quickly realise the importance of making sure there is not too much slack between themselves and their anchors. Having the knot in the brake end of the rope ensures that I can't be dropped all the way to the deck.

widewetandslippery
13/04/2011
2:51:43 PM
If I had a friend and they wanted climbing leading instruction I would send them to the simey school rather than the wendy school. The simey school will quickly decipher if the person really wants to lead routes or they like the idea of leading routes. two very different things.
Wendy
14/04/2011
12:58:07 PM
On 13/04/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>If I had a friend and they wanted climbing leading instruction I would
>send them to the simey school rather than the wendy school. The simey school
>will quickly decipher if the person really wants to lead routes or they
>like the idea of leading routes. two very different things.

I don't really see what the difference is in the Simey school and the Wendy school except that Simey likes Camalot and Trapeze and I don't. Other than that, didn't we agree that it's about the process not the grade, easy and well protected, short and accessible and so on?

We all know the opportunities for scaring yourself silly in climbing are abundent and all beginners will get around to that soon enough, I just like to be sure that people have strong grasp of the basics before they get there.

And if people don't ever get around to scaring themselves silly, that's ok too. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but some people actually like only ever leading what we might consider easy rambles. That's their choice. It doesn't mean they "don't really like leading routes".
Samuel
14/04/2011
1:31:43 PM
Mesa, Piss easy. Gear every wear.

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There are 81 messages in this topic.

 

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