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VIC Southwest You Yangs Urinal Wall - Saddle (General) [ You Yangs Guide | Images ] 

Royal Flush - is it worth 3 stars
Bob Saki
11:34:00 AM
In the guide it is written up as a 3 star route. I lead it on the weekend, and whilst I don't consider myself in a position to judge route quality with assuredness I fail to see this as a 3 star route.

does any one agree/disgaree
11:37:43 AM
It is no better than other routes on that wall. Three stars it most certainly is not. One at best.

11:40:34 AM
Soem of the Youies stars are very very generous in my opinion! IMHO for a climb to get three stars it
must be sustained, interesting, long, good line of weakness with no way of escaping crux moves and
location and rock quality must be fantastic. Royal Flush fits none of these descriptions...

12:11:26 PM
i aggree, it's got good moves but lacks the usual effects/factors of a 3 star climb.

master of drung
12:36:55 PM
im sure i've read a qualifier somewhere about you yang stars being different to other area's, that route is probably a bit more varied and interesting than some of the others nearby, but three stars is probably a generous call.
12:38:38 PM
Gets one star from me, but it's really nothing special. Take that to mean "at most one star".

I think the whole stars thing has got out of hand, a three star route has to be something worth making a trip for. Saying it is "worth 3 stars for the area" doesn't cut it for me.

The You Yangs is probably one of the worst areas in this regard. Perhaps some people have climbed there too much and lost perspective. The routes around at Big Rock are similar in nature - but longer and better, and I don't recall many stars on the route descriptions. Likewise Checkpoint Charlie is 13m of fun, worth a star but no more.

12:41:08 PM
There actually is some routes worth at least 2 stars in the You Yangs. Grimulace, Question Of Ethics,
Pain and Frequency are all very good, sustained and spectacular routes.

12:43:37 PM
On the weekend we made a special effort to do a *** route at a remote part of the Victoria Ranges
(Grampians). It was a shame that ourminds had invisioned a super mega classic - and the reality was
much lower. Three stars should only be handed out to a very few routes at the best crags. Melbourne
crags have very little in the way of three star routes.
Bob Saki
1:02:40 PM
then you look at a route like Regicide on Royalty Wall.
This is given one Star- I personally agree with this - the climb keeps you thinking
and I rate it much higher than Royal Flush.

What I deducing from your responses is that often the starring system is very narrow and based on the area or part of that area as opposed to being compared to other starred routes country wide

would it be be worth revising the starring at some areas?

1:12:57 PM
Most guide books will go so far as to say that the relative worths of climbs (denoted by stars) is with respect to that area (or guide book). Some guide books don't give stars at all (eg Point Perp). Some first ascentionists give out stars for their own work, others don't and wait for the court of public opinion to assign it merit. Whatever happens people will always argue about a climb being good or ordinary.
1:29:04 PM
On 13/12/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>Three stars should only be handed out to a very few routes
>at the best crags. Melbourne
>crags have very little in the way of three star routes.

i disagree with your logic neil. To me, the starring system is proportional to how much effort it takes me to get to the route. An 'alright or OK' route in the grampians is not worth doing in my opinion when you have travelled 4 hrs and walked 30 + minutes in. However an average route in the youies is much more fun for some reason.

They have super dooper easy access, most of the time. Thats why i believe that most routes around melbourne should be friggen plastered with stainless steel. What's the point of dying on a crumbling piece of granite. Is it going to make you a better climber... ?!?

There are some great routes around melbourne too. The you yangs and mt beckie probably suffers however from overstarring...

1:33:40 PM
Im not sayign they shouldn't get plenty of one and two star ratings.. but three stars is hardly justified for
8m granite tors. You just can't compare a route like Serpentine (at Taipan) to a route like Royal Flush.
1:40:02 PM
On 13/12/2005 cruze wrote:
>Most guide books will go so far as to say that the relative worths of climbs
>(denoted by stars) is with respect to that area (or guide book)...

Which might well be fair enough. However if you took that generous approach and gave the best climbs at the Youies three stars (Grimulace, Question Of Ethics, Pain and Frequency as Neil suggests, plus maybe Stone the Crows), you still couldn't reasonably give Royal Flush three or even two.

Then again, Bob Saki, if you think the stars are overdone and the routes short at the Youies, don't ever get lured to Mt Beckworth...
Bob Saki
1:52:17 PM
based on this
I feel starring for the most part could be meaningless. I personally don't think one should ignore unstarred routes but if you've been convinced to go somehwere based on nothing but reading a guidebook and seeing there's lots of 3 starred or 2 starred routes and they don't really live up to this you may feel a bit hard done by

But as Cruze said I guess it can be a personal thing and I'm sure ego can play a part here. It seems to me that the best way to judge a route is have the star decided by the masses i.e. 10 climbers who have repeated the route give their verdict.

I may be peeing into the wind but it would be nice if starring was consistent. I understand a 3 & 2 star route at the Youies even a good one like Squish Band or Exam technique will not compare to a 3 star route at a mecca like the Gramps but as Neil said a 3 starred route should have some things inc common weather on granite or quartzite or dolerite. Starring should be carefully applied as people like myself at first follow the stars...........

2:01:37 PM system is actually very good for seeing what the 'real climbing community' thinks of a
routes quality. For example Royal Flush only rates 4.2 (out of 7). That is a combined result from 38
people who have voted.

2:11:13 PM
Look at the latest Blue Mountains guide. An area gets a quality assesment (1 to 3 smileys) then within that area the climbs are assigned a worth (0 to 3 smileys - even the pile of s**t symbol). You just can't compare routes from different areas otherwise stars on most Australian crags would be as rare as hen's teeth especially if there were only three to give out because you would have to compare them to super duper classics at Yosemite, Ceuse, Taipan, etc Wouldn't make sense now would it? Pick an area, know how awesome or crap it is, do the best ones you like.

Chalk Free
7:50:56 PM
Stars are there to guide the best routes, at the grade, in the area. Royal flush is one of the better ones that I have done in the Youies, so I have no problem with it getting three. I reckon it's the best that Urinal wall has to offer.

I reckon Niel is drawing a long bow comparing Royal Flush to Serpentine, it just can't be done on any level, size, location, rock type, style. I don't think that's what the star system is all about.

If I go to an area I want an idea of what is going to be good and am happy to take the guide book editors opinion.
Bob Saki
12:45:33 PM
to me then it gets too narrow
like saying "royal flush is a 3 star route as it's the best grade 18 at urinal wall......................"
I think when you compare another 18 at the YY's such as Talmud (2 stars from memory) to Royal Flush I personally think it's a bettter toute than RF. All I'm saying is ok to be graded for the area but not a specific part of the area.

perhaps criteria should apply to a specific area to make starring more meaningful

but as Chalk Free has proven we all think differently..............

There are 18 messages in this topic.


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