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OT - Bit of a curly one - bringing herbs into Oz


ajfclark

11-Mar-2011
11:32:50 AM

Only watched the first minute or two, but that unexplained growth might be explained now. I just read an article about how some DNA was lost (compared to chimps) and that turned off the limiting on brain growth... http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/03/how-humans-got-spineless-penises.html

egosan

11-Mar-2011
11:34:33 AM

On 11/03/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jKlPyNZkGo&feature=related
>
>Great natropath clip

What an amazing example of confirmation bias.

widewetandslippery

11-Mar-2011
11:51:12 AM

If you get your hands on a T McKenna book grab it. I read one where he psychopharmoscientificly explains the end of time through the I Ching and thought transference with his brother.

egosan

11-Mar-2011
12:05:42 PM

On 11/03/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>If you get your hands on a T McKenna book grab it. I read one where he
>psychopharmoscientificly explains the end of time through the I Ching and
>thought transference with his brother.

Great......
Do the books by chance come with a recommended dose of psilocybin necessary to understand them? Did you find you had to take the full dose or have the lingering effects of that acid trip that was 1995 allow you to interpret the book sober?

widewetandslippery

11-Mar-2011
12:12:16 PM

That trip I took 1995 ended?


billk

11-Mar-2011
12:22:27 PM

On 11/03/2011 widewetandslippery wrote:
>That trip I took 1995 ended?

Only you can know that.

Which reminds me of an amusing story. Somehow a friend found herself staying with a bunch of ferals in Byron. Over some goon one of them got very vocal about what a stupid drug alcohol is:
"Ya get pissed, ya spew, you go to bed and get up the next morning with a hangover feeling like shit but you still go to work anyway. But you only have to take one trip and you never work again!"


Superstu

11-Mar-2011
1:19:14 PM

Feeling bummed that your local GP keeps prescribing boring old standard treatment pharmaceuticals for your ailments? Using this chart you too can find out your ideal alternative therapy.

http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/history/2010/1030altmedflowchart.htm

Duncan

11-Mar-2011
1:47:23 PM

ODH, generally I agree with what you say. However, to dismiss all traditional medicine out of hand is fuching retarded. I have a PhD in biochemistry - does that lend my post cred?

Let myself quote... myself.

On 10/03/2011 Duncan wrote:
>Under Australian rules, for a drug to get regulatory approval, you have
>to be able to identify the active component. A lot of traditional Chinese
>medicines are demonstrably efficacious, but either haven't had their active
>constituent identified, or have a number of active components that work
>together, making it very difficult to identify exactly what the active
>component(s) are.
>
>Big pharma spends serious money on investigating many of these medicines.
> Maybe Chockstoners know something they don't, or maybe some of you are
>talking out your arses.

widewetandslippery

11-Mar-2011
1:54:32 PM

Duncan has been to courses that tell him beers after exercise are rehydrating! But they stipulated light beer. I'm on the fence.


Andrew_M

11-Mar-2011
6:19:20 PM

Bloody hell, here’s what’s turned into a long and dull essay...good if you have insomnia

Much “alternative” medicine is an obvious crock of sh!t, but just because it isn’t conventional doesn’t necessarily mean that it doesn’t “work”. There are lots of practical reasons why “alternative therapies” might not be in the mainstream that have absolutely nothing to do with whether they are safe and effective or not.

First up...if you forget the mumbo jumbo that often dresses up alternative approaches, to totally dismiss all alternative therapies out of hand is quite simply unscientific. Science doesn't discriminate against the apparent wackiness of an idea - it's just a method to work out whether there is any basis to a particular claim or not using a standard approach that involves experimentation. A lot of alternative medicine has probably never been tested properly so we simply can’t actually say whether it “works” or not. This can be done rigorously using exactly the same approach as with mainstream drugs/procedures, with the gold standard being a double-blind randomized placebo-controlled clinical trial.

So why haven’t they been tested? For better or worse, it is money and money alone that drives almost all applied medical research - and who pays? On average, for any new drug it costs in the order of a billion dollars (give or take) to get it through the safety and efficacy testing process and drug companies are not charities, they need to get a return on their investment. Does big pharma want to spend this kind of money to investigate whether putting candles in your ear cures cancer? This is the obvious nut job end of the spectrum but it gets tricker than that. The reasons why drug companies won’t touch some treatments are not necessarily obvious...for example, if the end market isn’t large enough (ie there aren’t enough people who have the disease), or that those people don’t have any money (eg third world only diseases) then development costs can’t be covered. Ethically and morally objectionable, but that’s just the way it is with the current system.

Then there’s patenting. The basic take on this is....patenting gives a drug company a 20 year monopoly to charge pretty much whatever the hell they want to for the drug/product/ procedure. This is what motivates them. You can’t patent a healthy diet, regular exercise or a proper work/life balance so drug companies are not interested in these (hopefully this is where taxpayer-funded government schemes come in... not always). But just as often it’s technical reasons why pharma isn’t interested – if anyone has ever promoted or published or presented some kind of new therapy, it’s assumed to be common knowledge and no longer patentable – this is called “prior art” in patent jargon. There’s also an incredibly complex paper trail that is needed to justify all claims about therapeutics for patenting and to be approved for clinical trials -this is not the sort of thing your average alternative type is likely to be good at dealing with.

So, if some non mainstream person (AKA, “a wacked out new age nut job” to most folks) does, astonishingly, happen to develop a treatment or therapy that does actually work, it will almost certainly never become mainstream. This is because, chances are, they’ve put it up on their website or treated a patient without making them sign a non-disclosure form (i.e. causing it to be prior art). If they haven’t done this, they almost certainly haven’t documented the specifications of every single batch of every single substance they have used, or noted down the serial number of every pipette for every test and when it was last calibrated and by whom, or recorded their testing in double counter-signed laboratory note books that have been stored in locked fire proof cabinets every night as per the required OECD Good Laboratory Practice procedures (blah blah blah blah). This means that no one can patent it so they can’t recoup the costs of taking it through preclinical safety testing and then clinical trials. If it hasn’t gone through these processes then it can never get regulatory approval and can never be mainstream.

So...what percentage of alternative therapies might actually not harm people and even do some good? 0.01%?0. 1%? who knows? Only something like 1-2%(??) of conventional therapeutic candidates make it from scratch through the whole process and end up being used anyway. It's more worrying that any particular alternative treatment might do something bad than actually work. Then again, more often than it should be that’s the case with “regular” treatments too...

climberman

11-Mar-2011
7:34:03 PM

On 11/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>What sort of scientist? Human geography is not a science,

Fk dude, that was uncalled for. Lucky I did a dual strand of Human AND Physical Geography for my science degree ! (The colouring in degree !).

Nice post thought !


IdratherbeclimbingM9

11-Mar-2011
8:27:14 PM

On 10/03/2011 Cesca wrote:
>On 10/03/2011 vwills wrote:
>>Oh dear, mountainz hosts glen and cesca have strayed into the robust
>opinionated
>>chockstone and got a bit defensive when everyone on Chockstone is just
>>being their normal pig headed, hyperbolic on line selves. Chill out dudes.
>>This forum is a bit different from yours without the nice touchy feely
>>elements. Sometimes a bit over the top, sometimes in the gutter, but
>often
>>good for a laugh.
>
>Vanessa, I am curious - ignoring every "pig headed, hyperbolic" comment
>directed at me, sharing info from the AQIS site, and conversing with those
>offering helpful info makes me defensive?
>
>As for our "nice touchy feely forum", I recall you being more than happy
>to take up my time and take advantage of the atmosphere at Mountainz when
>you couldn't get your forum login to work, and wanted to know more about
>the Freda Du Faur centennary celebrations and what to do in and around
>Queenstown. Next time you get in touch, I'll try my bestest to be nasty,
>mmm'k?

~> This is a classic case of internet mis-interpretation, where one of the few helpful posts is misconstued as a personal attack!
It alll comes across as a bit of a laugh to the gallery on the sidelines.
;-)

One Day Hero

12-Mar-2011
1:02:59 AM

On 11/03/2011 Duncan wrote:
>ODH, generally I agree with what you say. I have a PhD in biochemistry

Cool, sounds like I've got backing from a qualified expert :)
>
Having spent a bit of time winding up a naturopath (and a seperate time in the gramps where I baited a Chiro........fantastic body, but soooooo dumb!), here are a few pearls of wisdom which I've picked up;

-"the minimum amount of water which anyone should drink is 6L per day".............spoken as she obsessively sipped from the plastic bottle, her constant companion...........................6L!!! hyponatremia anyone?

-"if your diet is correct, your stools should float and not be offensive smelling"
I turn to my mate, and give him the look which asks "did she just tell us that she habitually punches out floaters, and that her shit doesn't stink?".............he gives me the look which says "I believe so"

-"the science has advanced, instead of aligning joints manually, we now use this tool.... (holds up what is essentially a lightly spring-loaded slide hammer).....it allows me to align your joints without them cracking"

I drag my gaze away from the magnificent tits, and onto the amusing device....."but, I thought that Chiro's crack stuff?......I thought that was your one trick?.......hmmm, I bet you could get stuck wires out with that thing"

"Well, using one of these, the joint gets aligned without cracking......its very complicated"

"I'm sure it is, my dear.....may I?" I borrow the device and begin randomly slide hammering myself in different spots.......the spring is really weak, and what I'm doing is equivalent to lightly punching myself with a single knuckle (there goes any chance of it helping with stuck gear).

'Tits' has a bit of a freak out. "You really shouldn't do that! You have no idea of the forces which can be generated by that tool" ("oh, I think I might") "if you use that without proper training, you'll misalign things, and every part you use it on will be really sore tomorrow!".....................dumbfounded silence........................."every part?"

"yes!"

I shoot myself in the bicep, "will that be sore tomorrow?"

"yes!"

"Ummm, I had three pretty good shots at Monkey Puzzle today, I reckon that bicep was destined to be sore anyway............what if I find something which isn't sore, how about this arse cheek?" shoots self in arse cheek

"yes, that'll be sore tomorrow too, but you'll claim that it isn't because you just believe what you want to believe!"

I have to think about this one......"what if we use an impartial test subject? How about I shoot Chris in his arse cheek?" Chris throws me that look which says "jesus christ, you're a child! Why can't you just let it go, so we can share this campfire without shit getting awkward?"

I sigh, hand the device back, and return to booby watching...........I notice that my arse cheek is a bit sore..........

TrayRacer

12-Mar-2011
8:48:29 AM

Check on the ICON/AQIS database to see if the plant or extract can be brought in

http://www.aqis.gov.au/icon32/asp/ex_querycontent.asp


Andrew_M

13-Mar-2011
8:59:43 AM

Herbal remedies in the news...

http://www.smh.com.au/national/diet-product-fails-toxin-test-20110312-1bs25.html


Miguel75

13-Mar-2011
11:05:26 AM

This post made me chortle...

On 12/03/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 11/03/2011 Duncan wrote:
>>ODH, generally I agree with what you say. I have a PhD in biochemistry
>
>Cool, sounds like I've got backing from a qualified expert :)
>>
>Having spent a bit of time winding up a naturopath (and a seperate time
>in the gramps where I baited a Chiro........fantastic body, but soooooo
>dumb!), here are a few pearls of wisdom which I've picked up;
>
>-"the minimum amount of water which anyone should drink is 6L per day".............spoken
>as she obsessively sipped from the plastic bottle, her constant companion.................
>.........6L!!! hyponatremia anyone?
>
>-"if your diet is correct, your stools should float and not be offensive
>smelling"
>I turn to my mate, and give him the look which asks "did she just tell
>us that she habitually punches out floaters, and that her shit doesn't
>stink?".............he gives me the look which says "I believe so"
>
>-"the science has advanced, instead of aligning joints manually, we now
>use this tool.... (holds up what is essentially a lightly spring-loaded
>slide hammer).....it allows me to align your joints without them cracking"
>
>I drag my gaze away from the magnificent tits, and onto the amusing device....."but,
>I thought that Chiro's crack stuff?......I thought that was your one trick?.......hmmm,
>I bet you could get stuck wires out with that thing"
>
>"Well, using one of these, the joint gets aligned without cracking......its
>very complicated"
>
>"I'm sure it is, my dear.....may I?" I borrow the device and begin randomly
>slide hammering myself in different spots.......the spring is really weak,
>and what I'm doing is equivalent to lightly punching myself with a single
>knuckle (there goes any chance of it helping with stuck gear).
>
>'Tits' has a bit of a freak out. "You really shouldn't do that! You have
>no idea of the forces which can be generated by that tool" ("oh, I think
>I might") "if you use that without proper training, you'll misalign things,
>and every part you use it on will be really sore tomorrow!".....................dumbfounde
> silence........................."every part?"
>
>"yes!"
>
>I shoot myself in the bicep, "will that be sore tomorrow?"
>
>"yes!"
>
>"Ummm, I had three pretty good shots at Monkey Puzzle today, I reckon
>that bicep was destined to be sore anyway............what if I find something
>which isn't sore, how about this arse cheek?" shoots self in arse cheek
>
>"yes, that'll be sore tomorrow too, but you'll claim that it isn't because
>you just believe what you want to believe!"
>
>I have to think about this one......"what if we use an impartial test
>subject? How about I shoot Chris in his arse cheek?" Chris throws me that
>look which says "jesus christ, you're a child! Why can't you just let it
>go, so we can share this campfire without shit getting awkward?"
>
>I sigh, hand the device back, and return to booby watching...........I
>notice that my arse cheek is a bit sore..........
>
>

cogsy

13-Mar-2011
12:05:22 PM

Oh my god, that was hilarious. Allmost as good as Charlie Sheens tiger-cooking video! Watch out Simey, ODH is going to blast your Arno-pisstake out of the water if he keeps up the good work!


nmonteith

15-Mar-2011
6:28:39 PM

Intriguing...

http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/wellbeing/practical-medicine-or-unethical-20110315-1bvow.html

There are 78 messages in this topic.