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General Climbing Discussion

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The greatest sandbags in Victoria
5:11:52 PM
A friend of mine recently said that Claw had finally admitted that Rent A Doddle at Ben Cairn was more like 30 than 26 (is this true ?)

Personally, I always thought that at Araps, Cumelittle at 24 was harder than Power, Corruption and Lies (27), and in fact I don't know anyone who has actually managed to do it. Has anyone ?

I also found Dinosaurs Don't Dyno on Taipan obscenely difficult for 26 too ...

My question: What are the greatest all-time sandbags in Victorian climbing ?

5:20:06 PM
Another Claw route in the You Yangs comes to mind. Pain And Frequency, North western outcrop in the You Yangs was originally graded 23 (now graded 28 -although I think it still awaits a second ascent)
8:29:06 PM
First, a disclaimer, I haven't actually lead Cumelittle. I've led the crux move but couldn't commit myself knowing that I was getting above that appalling rawl button, even though I had the bomproof thread clipped someway below it.

I believe that Mikl has led the original climb in runners. The direct start (added by Nick White from Devon) is probably no harder than the original but the linkage probably increases the grade.

Dinosaur's don't Dyno was originally graded 27.

I'll give the question some thought. Beam Me Up Scotty at Arapiles might be worth a look.

11:02:00 PM
Why do i get the feeling theres going to be a lot of mikl routes posted here.
Personaly, i dont think ive been on too many sandbaged routes, the only one i can think of is Anal crank at weribee gorge graded 20 and solod by mikl for the FA, in my book it's more like 23/24.
12:08:46 AM
Yeah cumelittle is hard for the grade, I only tried it once and got demoralised. I think diazepam is very hard for 25.

2:28:33 PM
The downclimb of the pinnicle on Tiptoe Ridge felt a bit stiff for grade 3. If its grade 6 (my guestimate) thats a 200% sandbag factor!

The Elk
2:31:58 PM
Just a point, Anal Crank is graded 20+, As I understand it was put up before the grades went much harder than a 20, It was obviously harder than 20, but nothing official could be given to it.

3:35:19 PM
Hmm sounds a bit suss to me, I think there were grade 28's at Araps (cobwebs, india etc) in 82/83. I think this is about when Anal Cranck woulf have been done? MIke Laws entertaining interview in the articles section of the site gives a bit of an insite into the grading methodology.

4:33:06 PM
How about Plum Jamb at Ben Cairn?
11:31:59 PM
Cumelittle was Kim's not Mikl's. Mikl's connection is that he has reputedly climbed it in runners. I do not know if this is true or false, neither do I know whether he led or tope-roped the alleged ascent. The story is quite plausible, I just don't know if it's true.
By the way, I would be quite happy to finance the replacement of the rawl button by the natimuk Bolting Fairies.
10:21:06 AM
So who DOWNgraded Dynosaurs Don't Dyno then ?
10:45:35 AM
Just for the record i've done Cumalittle or Seimen Stain or whatever it's called and i know at least 3 of 4 others who have too. You can back up the button with a wire i seam to remember. Slime Time is another Claw sandbag worth mentioning i don't know if that puppy has had a second ascent. Also Slopin Sleason was graded 26 and is now a stiff 28. You must remember that Claw was just trying to balance out all Kim's soft touches for the grade.
12:29:03 PM
When I was doing the North Gramps guide there were quite a few discrepancies at the lower end of the scale. There were a swag of routes graded 4 in the Amphitheatre that subsequently turned out to between 8 and 10 (which I reckon is from 100% to 150% sandbag factor or 200% - 300% using OwenG's reckoning). One route that I never got around to checking was Caramello on Briggs Bluff, it's still graded 6 but given the above discrepancies it could be anywhere between 6 and 15. With a name like that it must have a soft centre and coupled with the fact that the climb is multiple pitches on a cliff with a 60 minute approach could make it a serious undertaking for any bumbly that makes the effort to repeat it.

Another great lower grade sandbag was Llareggub at Arapiles, it went from 11 to 17, which would have demoralised a few would-be leaders.
1:09:40 PM
i think alot of low graded climbs are harder than the grade states.
4:21:00 PM
Grading is easier to estimate when it's closer to your limit. I assume for the easier grades the first ascensionists weren't too challenged and therefore the grades can be further out.
9:38:37 AM
I think Remus (4) and Romulus (5) are sandbags at Camels Hump (put up in 1962 by Peter Jackson/Steve Craddock). I have no idea what a grade 4 or 5 should feel like but I don't think they are much, if any, easier than say De Blanc (12) at Summerday Valley.

3:06:39 PM
I was reading the original (1960's) Grampian Guidebook on the weekend, which was interesting in that it was the first Victorian guidebook to use the Ewbank Grading system. That got me thinking that old routes like Romulus and Remus may not have had their grade converted from the old Victorian grading system (where old grade 5 was equal to ewbank grade 8 to 12). Anyway, just a theory.
3:53:48 PM
What about Exodus II being more like 24 or 25 rather than 27 ? Am I sandbagging now ? I hear Chris Sheppard went straight up the crack ignoring the jug inches away. Also the top out is pretty arbitrary.
4:31:41 PM
Exodus II is graded 26 in selected guidebook, probably more like 25.

Phil Box
11:09:34 AM
Hah, you guys haven`t seen sandbags until you`ve been on Mt. Tibrogargan. Some of the routes have doubled from one guide to the next. I was on one route that is supposed to be a grade 8 and I swore it should be a desperat death 18. Much of this outrageous undergrading has been fixed up now.


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