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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 9 of 15. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 286
Author
Off-topic: Climbers who believe in Jesus

dave h.
6/02/2011
3:15:15 PM
On 6/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
> Accept all contradictions that are appealing, turn a blind eye to a few
>others, can you jump up and down about following a few of them to the letter
>just to round it off? Maybe argue about a few obscure details and ignore
>any obvious questions?

I'm sick of people accusing Christian's of intellectual laziness without being specific. To everyone who's been playing this card, I say in the nicest way possible: please either put up or shut up (ie if you want to talk about Christians ignoring internal contradictions in the Bible, etc, be specific - point to a passage, and we'll talk about it).


I think what most frustrates me is that people are generally unwilling to give 'the other side' the benefit of the doubt. People like wetwideandslippery say (irrespective of whether he believes it, others do) that people of faith are mentally ill; Wendy suggests (in not quite so many words) that we're intellectually inconsistent and lazy, etc. I think I copped "utterly moronic" from Duncan a few pages ago. I'm not offended by this. Doubtless there are people who call themselves Christian who fit the description. That some people are happy to think that we're *all* like this makes me sad. And quite frankly it just discourages me from even bothering to try and discuss this with people.

I was encouraged when ODH asked me some questions. Nice not to be typecast immediately...

Neil - good private schools with no religious background - Sydney Grammar School. While it's part of the GPS, it was founded as a secular school in 1854 by an act of NSW Parliament. My understanding is that it's almost militantly secular.

jacq - that's a little unfair. If Mike Treder can blame me for all of those things, surely I should be able to blame you for the victims of Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Anyway your atheism doesn't offend me, and as you say, attacking people will never persuade them. I thought the skeptoid article (Harold posted a link) was very even-handed and I broadly agreed with it.


Anyway, thanks for attending my little pity party. Now that the concrete in Sydney has stopped melting (for our listeners in Mexico and Canada, a cool change just arrived) I'm going to go and do stuff.
Olbert
6/02/2011
5:57:35 PM
On 6/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>I'm sick of people accusing Christian's of intellectual laziness without
>being specific. To everyone who's been playing this card, I say in the
>nicest way possible: please either put up or shut up (ie if you want to
>talk about Christians ignoring internal contradictions in the Bible, etc,
>be specific - point to a passage, and we'll talk about it).

Any of these will do - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

>jacq - that's a little unfair. If Mike Treder can blame me for all of those things, surely I >should be able to blame you for the victims of Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Anyway
>your atheism doesn't offend me, and as you say, attacking people will never persuade
>them. I thought the skeptoid article (Harold posted a link) was very even-handed and I
>broadly agreed with it.

I think the point is that nobody commits genocide, torture, etc etc in the name of the atheism, however, in the name of religion a lot of terrible crimes have been committed.


Duncan
6/02/2011
6:36:47 PM
Whoa, I didn't say you were utterly moronic, I said that saying that the existence of God is beyond reasonable doubt is. I'm happy for you to believe what you want, but don't try and suggest that it's anything other than your faith that God exists.

Pat
6/02/2011
7:16:13 PM
On 6/02/2011 Olbert wrote:

>
>I think the point is that nobody commits genocide, torture, etc etc in
>the name of the atheism, however, in the name of religion a lot of terrible
>crimes have been committed.
>
>
>

You don't think that atheistic regimes in the previous USSR and China haven't committed genocide and torture in the name of their ideology?
Olbert
6/02/2011
7:37:30 PM
On 6/02/2011 Pat wrote:
>On 6/02/2011 Olbert wrote:
>
>>
>>I think the point is that nobody commits genocide, torture, etc etc in
>>the name of the atheism, however, in the name of religion a lot of terrible
>>crimes have been committed.
>>
>>
>>
>
>You don't think that atheistic regimes in the previous USSR and China
>haven't committed genocide and torture in the name of their ideology?

Thats not what I said, Im not denying what they did. Im saying it wasnt in the name of atheism.

Post edit: On rereading your post I realise I didnt quite address what you asked.

Christopher Hitchens argues that the Soviet Union under Stalin in essence had a state religion - The Cult of Stalin (I also remember studying the Cult of Stalin in Modern History). So the attrocities committed in the USSR could be said to be in the name of a religion, even though that one no longer exists.

I have not studied or read much on the communist history of China but I would be surprised if there wasnt an element of religiosity in the propaganda. Either way, I dont think that they perpetrated their crimes in the name of atheism; just because it wasnt in the name of religion doesnt mean it was name of atheism.
rolsen1
6/02/2011
8:19:55 PM
On 6/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>I'm sick of people accusing Christian's of intellectual laziness without
>being specific.

James (the one from the Bible) says "anyone who knows the good he (she) ought to do and doesn't do it sins"

Find me one Christian that doesn't selectively interpret this one to suit their own behaviours. And don't you dare, pull the "poor will always be with us" line. Imagine what the Christian faith would be like if this was interpreted in the same vein as verses about homosexuality.

The Christian Church is just a tennis club, where instead of playing tennis, you go to Church, it is about hanging out with your friends, and enjoying all that friendship brings.

All Christians are selective in what they believe, full stop. Personally, I don't have a problem with this, lots of people believe in capitalism which is a greater evil to believe in. I do have a problem with beliefs that cause harm - ie. Christians who believe that leadership is a male role and only in male-female marriages.

voodoo
6/02/2011
8:42:25 PM
On 6/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>Neil - good private schools with no religious background - Sydney Grammar
>School. While it's part of the GPS, it was founded as a secular school
>in 1854 by an act of NSW Parliament. My understanding is that it's almost
>militantly secular.

Your example of SGS is not entirely accurate. It's a non-denominational school, not a secular school. I still remember weekly Bible readings, accompanied by readings from other religious texts of other faiths. And the lord's prayer was recited by all weekly, and exclusively Christian hymns were sung. This is not what I would label as "militant" secularism.

nmonteith
6/02/2011
8:58:31 PM
On 6/02/2011 voodoo wrote:
>Your example of SGS is not entirely accurate. It's a non-denominational
>school, not a secular school. I still remember weekly Bible readings,
>accompanied by readings from other religious texts of other faiths. And
>the lord's prayer was recited by all weekly, and exclusively Christian
>hymns were sung.

That's exactly the sort of stuff i felt wasted my time at my religious high school. Try as they might it didn't work to convert me. My crowning Christian moment was writing satanic lyrics to Hymn #666 and performing with our metal band in the school band competition. Probably one of the reason i eventually got expelled now that i think of it.
Brazened
6/02/2011
9:20:39 PM
What do you guys think of this?

http://firstchurchofatheism.com/
Wendy
6/02/2011
9:30:22 PM
On 6/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>On 6/02/2011 Wendy wrote:
>> Accept all contradictions that are appealing, turn a blind eye to a
>few
>>others, can you jump up and down about following a few of them to the
>letter
>>just to round it off? Maybe argue about a few obscure details and ignore
>>any obvious questions?
>
>I'm sick of people accusing Christian's of intellectual laziness without
>being specific. To everyone who's been playing this card, I say in the
>nicest way possible: please either put up or shut up (ie if you want to
>talk about Christians ignoring internal contradictions in the Bible, etc,
>be specific - point to a passage, and we'll talk about it).
>

I'm not trying to create solid intellectual argument on this one, I'm just playing along with ODH for mindless giggles. I've done all my reasoned argument on this topic around here before and I'm over it. As over it as carrots and use of the word gay. But I do think it's a perfectly resonable point of mindless giggles to mention that the christian church has a long history or conveniently ignoring it's principles when it doesn't suit them and so forth. Not you in particular because I couldn't be fűcked going through all that again, neither can i be fűcked listing a whole bunch of them again to justify by claim it's a reasonable point, we'll just have to disagree on it along with all the rest of it.

And now Sydney is cool and Nati is dry, we can both be happy climbers.

rodw
6/02/2011
10:59:51 PM
On 6/02/2011 Brazened wrote:
>What do you guys think of this?
>
>http://firstchurchofatheism.com/

The "church" seems pointless to me but I do like the little world thing down the bottom...can we get one for chocky?

dave h.
7/02/2011
12:29:08 AM
Olbert -

I choose contradiction #2: Was Abraham justified by faith or by works?

Your busily-annotating Skeptics say that Romans 4:2 suggests he was justified by faith, while James 2:21 suggests he was justified by works. They've taken one sentence and have divorced them from the surrounding text. (I hope I don't need to explain why this is not cricket.) While they appear to be contradictory, in fact they are quite consistent.

If they had gone on to read James 2:22-23 they would see the author write: "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God."

This part of James 2 is a discussion about faith and works. The point James is making is that a faith which does not result in actions carried out consistently with that faith is dead. James tells us that it was Abraham's faith, which he expressed by offering Isaac upon the altar (and that's a discussion for another day), that was credited to him as righteousness - ie, it justified him.

http://www.esvonline.org/search/Romans+4/ - link to Romans 4.
http://www.esvonline.org/search/James%20%2B2/ - James 2.

Your skeptics have it wrong. If they'd bothered to read a few verses on either side of the ones they've extracted, they would see that they're not inconsistent at all.

Re: why people do things.
Why should we broaden the definition of religion so as to include Stalin's "cult of personality"? From my point of view it looks like Hitchens cherry-picking his definition to suit his argument.

Duncan -
thank you for the clarification. I don't deny the role of faith in my belief. But my faith is not a blind faith.

Voodoo -
I defer to your expertise re: SGS. SGS does notably produce a fair few climbers. Mostly due to the Endeavour club I believe...

Wendy -
amen to that. Bring on Tuesday (climbing day)...

rolsen -
>James (the one from the Bible) says "anyone who knows the
> good he (she) ought to do and doesn't do it sins"

Yeah. Reading the Bible is tough like that - it convicts me of my sin. I think you'll find a lot of Christians have consistent beliefs but struggle to find ways of realising those beliefs in action. Did you think I was claiming to be some spotless pure saint sojourning amongst sinners?

Sure some churches are just like tennis clubs. Don't let that bother you though, God'll sort out everyone who claims to be a Christian. One way or the other.

Re Christian beliefs causing harm - do you think it is the belief in se, or the way that belief is acted upon?

Anyway, I'm a little confused. It seems like you're pissed off that Christians aren't better Christians.
One Day Hero
7/02/2011
2:54:18 AM
On 7/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>Sure some churches are just like tennis clubs. Don't let that bother you
>though, God'll sort out everyone who claims to be a Christian. One way
>or the other.
>
Or, alternately, there is no god and everyone will decompose together in harmony.

>Re Christian beliefs causing harm - do you think it is the belief in se,
>or the way that belief is acted upon?
>
I reckon that Christian beliefs and the way those beliefs are acted upon cannot be entirely disentangled. Most of the time what someone believes does not affect anyone else, every now and then folk act in accordance with their beliefs in a way which shits on the plates of others.

Anyway, thanks for answering my questionaire..........I figured you weren't an old testament crackpot.

I guess, like Wendy said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Cause I can't disprove your beliefs, and you can't disprove mine.
One Day Hero
7/02/2011
3:41:21 AM
On 6/02/2011 Olbert wrote:
>Any of these will do - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
>
To be fair, Oli, I had a quick browse of that list and some of it is farking petty.

One of their points is the no. of 'begats' beween Abraham and Jesus. One version adds up to 42 and the other to 41................now, c'mon! Expecting a 2000yr old text to have a begat error of less than 2% is asking a bit much. I think +/- 1 begat is totally acceptable, and hardly a contradiction.

Trending slightly off topic, there is some random point about David and Goliath, which made me wonder..........Was David really brave and heroic or was he simply cunning enough to bring a gun to a knife fight?

Indiana Jones pulls the same thing and you kinda laugh but think......."that poor, sword-wielding fanatic never had a chance, did he?"

ajfclark
7/02/2011
7:05:29 AM
On 6/02/2011 rodw wrote:
>The "church" seems pointless to me but I do like the little world thing
>down the bottom...can we get one for chocky?

Maybe for this thread?

Superstu
7/02/2011
10:58:05 AM
The bit I don't get about religious people is how they mangle their brains around the concept that their particular flavour of religion is somehow better than the other 95% of the worlds population's religions...

Quote from before..
> The breakup of religious beliefs in percentages is as follows...
> Roman Catholic = 25.8%
> Anglican = 18.7%
> Other Christian = 19.4%
> No religion = 18.7%
> Buddhism = 2.1%
> Islam = 1.7%
> Hinduism = 0.7%
> Judaism = 0.4%

That's just Australia. Take another country and you'll get different figures, so who's got the majority here or there is irrelevant.

Forget Christians contradicting each other (funny tho) just look at how all the religions of the world contradict each other

So if being born into a particular religion pretty much determines your faith, and you could be born anywhere, the only logical conclusion you can come up with is you are being brainwashed!

There are reasons for religion; its evolutionary development for societies to build structures that ensure the society is more cohesive and more resistant to destablising external forces. Somewhat ironic that the fruit cakes in Kansas are denying the process that got them in the mess in the first place.









Duncan
7/02/2011
11:50:00 AM
On 7/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>Duncan -
>thank you for the clarification. I don't deny the role of faith in my
>belief. But my faith is not a blind faith.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree on that one. As I said in my original post, I have no problem with religious belief if it doesn't affect me.
Olbert
7/02/2011
11:50:01 AM
On 7/02/2011 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 6/02/2011 Olbert wrote:
>>Any of these will do - http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html
>>
>To be fair, Oli, I had a quick browse of that list and some of it is farking
>petty.
>
>One of their points is the no. of 'begats' beween Abraham and Jesus. One
>version adds up to 42 and the other to 41................now, c'mon! Expecting
>a 2000yr old text to have a begat error of less than 2% is asking a bit
>much. I think +/- 1 begat is totally acceptable, and hardly a contradiction.

I read another 101 Bible contradictions page on some Islamist website and they were pretty much like that too. I actually agree, that contradiction and a lot of the other ones are petty.

Post edit: http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/gen_ml.html
That compares the geneology of Jesus from David; one says 28 generations, one says 43. A fairly significant difference.

I only posted that link in the interests of intellectual laziness.

...a few of them from that link arent petty though.
widewetandslippery
7/02/2011
12:14:27 PM
On 7/02/2011 Olbert wrote:
>I only posted that link in the interests of intellectual laziness.

See just talking about the bible can affect. Theism is viral.
Olbert
7/02/2011
12:43:22 PM
On 7/02/2011 dave h. wrote:
>Olbert -
>
>I choose contradiction #2: Was Abraham justified by faith or by works?
>
>Your busily-annotating Skeptics say that Romans 4:2 suggests he was justified
>by faith, while James 2:21 suggests he was justified by works. They've
>taken one sentence and have divorced them from the surrounding text. (I
>hope I don't need to explain why this is not cricket.) While they appear
>to be contradictory, in fact they are quite consistent.
>
>If they had gone on to read James 2:22-23 they would see the author write:
>"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed
>by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed
>God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend
>of God."
>
>This part of James 2 is a discussion about faith and works. The point
>James is making is that a faith which does not result in actions carried
>out consistently with that faith is dead. James tells us that it was Abraham's
>faith, which he expressed by offering Isaac upon the altar (and that's
>a discussion for another day), that was credited to him as righteousness
>- ie, it justified him.
>
>http://www.esvonline.org/search/Romans+4/ - link to Romans 4.
>http://www.esvonline.org/search/James%20%2B2/ - James 2.
>
>Your skeptics have it wrong. If they'd bothered to read a few verses on
>either side of the ones they've extracted, they would see that they're
>not inconsistent at all.
>
>Re: why people do things.
>Why should we broaden the definition of religion so as to include Stalin's
>"cult of personality"? From my point of view it looks like Hitchens cherry-picking
>his definition to suit his argument.

We dont have to broaden the definition of a religion to include the Cult of Stalin. The cult included a creation myth, dogma, a system of indoctrination, absolute code of conduct, an "end times narrative", enemies and devotion to a higher authority. Which part of all that isnt religious?

Heres an example of a poem emphasising the godliness of Stalin:
O great Stalin, O leader of the peoples,
Thou who broughtest man to birth.
Thou who fructifies the earth,
Thou who restorest to centuries,
Thou who makest bloom the spring,
Thou who makest vibrate the musical chords...
Thou, splendour of my spring, O thou,
Sun reflected by millions of hearts.
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/cult.html

>Re Christian beliefs causing harm - do you think it is the belief in se,
>or the way that belief is acted upon?

It is an undeniable core belief of any religion that at the heart of it all that particular religion is right and all others are wrong. If you dont believe in the one true god (or gods) you will spend an eternity in hell.

From my time growing up in the Uniting Church I found that it was told to me that it was my duty to tell others about the Good News. I would assume this is the same for pretty much all Christian sects and most religions.

The goal of most religions is to save as many people as possible - so to do the right thing by your beliefs you should act upon them and spread the word. Different religions/sects emphasise doing this in different ways. Historically force has been used, Im sure you can think of many examples; more recently fundamentalist Christianity and Islam would like to enforce religious law; less hardline groups spread the word by social interaction and persuasion.

I guess I am lucky that I live in a geographical location where the most likely form of religious persuasion I'll undergo is the last of the three options named. If I was unlucky enough to live in another area or different time I would be subject to either of the first two and possibly a few other options.

Its not that your religion affects me rather your religion, and religion in general, has had detrimental impacts to both societies and individuals - far more detrimental than beneficial.

>Anyway, I'm a little confused. It seems like you're pissed off that Christians
>aren't better Christians.


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