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A modest proposal


Rich

5-May-2004
11:59:04 PM

On 5/05/2004 anthonyk wrote:
>On 5/05/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>
>>(do you think we'll go a hundred posts on this? : )
>
>yes. yes i do.

i'll second that..


anthonyk

6-May-2004
10:58:21 AM

on another note, i guess people don't chase new adventurous climbs much because they don't get valued as being at the forefront of climbing in the same way that sport climbs do. how is someone who puts up adventurous challenging routes valued for their achievements? their new climb may be the most challenging climbing outing ever undertaken but the hardest move may only fit as a 29 on a sport route or something, so their effort gets somewhat overlooked. no wonder there's people chasing short pump-fests with preplaced draws but you don't hear about the newest scary big line very much.


anthonyk

6-May-2004
11:11:42 AM

when you talk about a climb being 22 on natural, is that meant to just be the technical difficulty of the hardest move or is it meant to take into account stuff like difficulty of placements etc? if you kept a separate french and ewbank scale, would natural climbing grades be more focused on the things that make trad climbs hard or would they both just represent technical moves (thus being directly convertible) and only be kept separate because they're referring to different styles of climbs?

James

6-May-2004
11:18:22 AM

Ewbank's intention was for all factors to be taken into account, but in practise this does not happen (in my opinion at least)...

the idea of 2 separate grading systems (or an E grade) is so that the factors that add to trad climbing are taken into account. A lot of these are removed from sport climbing by its very nature. So, no, trad grades should not just be about the technical moves, & they won't be excatly comparable (close perhaps, but not exact).


nmonteith

6-May-2004
11:34:43 AM

So how do you grade a route like Invisable Fist (26) on Taipan Wall? 6m runout (grade 16) to first bolt then 25m long with 7 bolts and one piece of easy to place trad. Potential dangerous ankle breaking fall from above the third bolt.


manacubus

6-May-2004
11:59:35 AM

7b+ with one piece of trad, or maybe E2 6b?

James

6-May-2004
12:10:09 PM

if French grades were to be adopted for sport routes then the grade shouldn't change - leave it at 26 (not sport due to the run-out & trad gear & potential fall). I'm not entirely familiar with E grades, but from what I know it would be more like E4/E5.


manacubus

6-May-2004
12:23:54 PM

As you know, the E grade represents the seriousness, not the technicality. Neil did say a potential for an ankle breaking fall from the above the third bolt, but I didn't count that as being a huge issue, especially considering it's bolted (no chance of gear pulling out). You're probbaly right though James, I just think it's strange to attribute such a high E grade to a primarily bolted route. In my mind, it really is a sport route (albeit a ballsy one).

I found some interesting categorisations on The Grit List website which go to prove there is more than one way to get the same E grade.

Catagories

SAFE but technical
Particularly hard, tricky and/or blind moves, relatively close to reliable gear or the ground, or between spaced gear if there is a good fall-out zone and little chance of hitting the deck. Failure to complete easier moves on these climbs may still result in injury. That's gritstone for you. e.g. White Wall (E5 6b), Millstone

SAFE but sustained
Good spaced gear or relative closeness of the ground, but the grade derived from the strenuousness of the effort required or very sustained sequence of moves (e.g. intense slab or arete climbing). Again, no guarentee that you won't hurt yourself apres crux. e.g. London Wall (E5 6a), Millstone

BOLD and technical
As most UK climbers who are familiar with the nuances of the British grading system know, these climbs can be anything from a few tricky moves above an ankle or leg breaking landing (with no gear), to one particularly desperate move above a back-breaking landing (with no gear). Suspect gear protected routes (e.g. the pegs used on The Braille Trail) come under this or the following catagory. e.g. White Wand (E5 6a), Stanage

BOLD and sustained
An sustained sequence of moves (whether steep and pumpy or intense friction section) above an injury guarenteed landing. e.g. Hairless Heart (E5 5c), Froggatt

Something like Invisible Fist on Taipan would probably fall into the "SAFE but technical" category I guess.


Richard

6-May-2004
1:09:27 PM

On 5/05/2004 nmonteith wrote:
>I think the main reason that sport routes get lots of ticks and the trad
>climbs get forgotten is because a large percentage of people don't want
>to die.

If you climb under, probably grade 20, I don;'t see you have much choice - sports routes don't really exist at these sub 20 'easy' grades, unless I've missed a cliff I'm not aware of. If you want to climb, trad is the only real option. Once you've done cassandra and swinging, what's left? The gramps seems to be similar. Sure, there are lots of bolted granite slabs, but most people don't like falling on such things, so I tend not to consider these climbs 'sport'.

Cheers

James

6-May-2004
1:57:21 PM

I'm kind of thinking out loud here, but I guessed E4/E5 due to the sustained nature.... ie slopey & steep. If you come off the Invisible Fist above the 3rd bolt, it involves a 5-6m fall ending just past a small ledge. I didn't think E4/E5 was that high considering there are E9/E10 routes out there. I reckon lots of Taipan would be "Safe but Sustained".

In many ways I agree that its a 'ballsey' sport route, but if the French grades were used for pure-sport routes, the factors mentioned (gear & fall) preclude it from this. If the fall was cleaner (ie steep territory the whole way) then maybe it could be 'sport'.

Rich, I agree there won't be many sport routes under 20, but I'm not sure this is relevant.... so what if most routes under 20 stay as is??

gfdonc

6-May-2004
2:10:32 PM


nmonteith

6-May-2004
2:47:53 PM

Gear rips out - even stuff that looks bomber. In my many years of aid climbing I have had plenty of good looking stuff strip out of cracks. Sport climbing in many ways eliminates the 'skill' required to place trad - and thus makes climbing much safer - and more appealing to the general non-deathwish community. Certainlly in the future if i have kids (no time soon!!!) I may re-consider trad climbing, especially run-out or loose trad climbing.

climbingjac

6-May-2004
5:16:55 PM

KIDS ???!!!! Monteith what is Kathy doing to you???!!!! What happened to our "I'm gonna do this and you can't stop me" Neil ?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

6-May-2004
6:20:32 PM

nmonteith
> aid climbing I have had plenty of good looking stuff strip out of cracks. Sport climbing in many ways eliminates the 'skill' required to place trad
Aiding is excellent for learning the limitations of trad placements IMO

Good point nm, (IMO) clipping bolts might be difficult if your pumped etc but it is not a 'skill' in the same sense of the word as 'chockcraft' is to Trad climbing.

manacubus re catagories of E grades
Where does Bold, Technical & Sustained (all 3 combined) fit in?


manacubus

7-May-2004
9:46:40 AM

>manacubus re catagories of E grades: Where does Bold, Technical & Sustained (all 3 combined) fit in?

It doesn't appear to. They will just decide to put it in one of the existing categories. If it's particularly sustained, it looks like they'll put it in the sustained category (routes are more usually technical, rather than particularly sustained). Have a read of these for some E8 descriptions. Note that some solos fit into the SAFE categories =)

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4755/climbing/gritlist/grit_e8.html


adski

7-May-2004
8:18:21 PM

On 6/05/2004 manacubus wrote:
>Something like Invisible Fist on Taipan would probably fall into the "SAFE
>but technical" category I guess.

Well you *could* call it safe... if the 6m of bouldery start and the "potentially dangerous ankle-breaking fall from the 3rd bolt" is discounted.

Safe my ass!

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