Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

A modest proposal

dalai

28-Apr-2004
3:32:51 PM

I think it would be naive to take anyones opinion and treat it as fact, whether on Chockstone or anywhere else for that matter.


Tel

28-Apr-2004
3:37:48 PM

without trying to add any more fuel to the fire France is definately on my list and it is ranking pretty high. Would love to go Font and am thinking of putting a little aside to try and get there this year or maybe this time next year... whenever it is warmer..


manacubus

28-Apr-2004
3:54:11 PM

It's annoying to see this thread drifting off into yet another bolting debate. So much for the original topic. Make a new thread if you wish to explore the bolting in France.


manacubus

28-Apr-2004
4:09:28 PM

>For example, if someone put up a 'Tradlist' webpage for e.g Frog or e.g Blue Mountains trad climbs giving UK (or whatever) grades, then I am sure many people would be extremely interested to sign into it and have a look. It also might give an alternative perspective to some routes.

Yeah that's a good idea.

I didn't realise so much of this discussion (new grading system/using E grades) had already occurred in the cauldron (oooh, spooky), which is a bit of a shame really, because you have to run the entire thread through the bullshit filter to uncover the sometimes profound nuggets that are buried there.

dalai

28-Apr-2004
4:11:12 PM

I can't answer such a generalized question Edward.

1. I didn't go to every cliff in France. But the areas I did go to over a 5 month road trip most definitely weren't. 20+ metre falls are not a sign of too many bolts!

2. There were no more bolts at French cliffs than say American or Australian cliffs that I have been to and climbed at over the last 16 years or so.

so then, what is overbolted?? Very subjective. Some might say one bolt on a wall is overbolted. Glass half full or half empty...

As to the second concern of ownership of route information. If that means well placed safe equipment then I am all for it! In fact all climb information is in reality owned already even in Australia as the guides are copyrighted. Just no one has bothered enforcing it.

(edited after posting) sorry Manacubus - spent time answering Edwards question to come back and see the thread continue.

Ewbank system does the job. If people feel there is a discrepancy - maybe the Ewbank system should be used correctly taking in the protection issue and graded accordingly. If it's a trad route, maybe to bring it in line they all should have two grades added or all sport climbs two grades subtracted?


Damietta

28-Apr-2004
4:11:38 PM

Yeh if you take a dip in the cauldron (it's very hot in here) you will see it was my idea

Joe

28-Apr-2004
4:24:47 PM

On 28/04/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>Should I disbelieve everything I read then, 'cos that rules out everything on
>CS?

Probably not a bad idea...

dalai

28-Apr-2004
4:27:47 PM

Sorry Edward - I have edited my previous post with your correction. Though in my defence, please check my additional comments to manacubus. I did mention I was away replying to 'your question'...


hex-TROLL

28-Apr-2004
4:29:50 PM

On 28/04/2004 Damien wrote :
> it was my idea

You sure about that,bro ?...


Damietta

28-Apr-2004
4:49:59 PM

On 28/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
>On 28/04/2004 Damien wrote :
>> it was my idea
>
> You sure about that,bro ?...

On 13/04/2004 Damey wrote:

> If the argument is "horses for courses" - I think that the British grading system much more objectively honours a bold lead as much as a difficult lead, and provides vital information to the would be later ascentionist, and better conveys the achievement of the first ascentionist. In that system, someone coming out of the gym would be much better informed about what to climb - with plenty of respect for (and fear of) an E6 - they would be likely to steer clear of it, rather than thinking they will easily nail a 19 that actually turns out to be a death route.

If people value boldness so much they couldn't really argue otherwise


nmonteith

28-Apr-2004
5:33:58 PM

I really like the way the Blue Mtns guide is written. Symbols for sport routes, gear leads, carrot bolts, death routes ect make it very easy to find something suitable.


Rich

28-Apr-2004
5:57:23 PM

the only addition i would make to the blueys guide is the no. of bolts per route.


remdan

28-Apr-2004
6:32:12 PM

could have a grade for pro and then a grade for the climb?
just like the uk does, i think.


hex-TROLL

28-Apr-2004
6:40:44 PM

On 28/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>On 28/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
>>On 28/04/2004 Damien wrote :
>>> it was my idea
>>
>> You sure about that,bro ?...
>
>On 13/04/2004 Damey wrote:
>
>> If the argument is "horses for courses" - I think that the British grading
>system much more objectively honours a bold lead as much as a difficult
>lead, and provides vital information to the would be later ascentionist,
>and better conveys the achievement of the first ascentionist. In that system,
>someone coming out of the gym would be much better informed about what
>to climb - with plenty of respect for (and fear of) an E6 - they would
>be likely to steer clear of it, rather than thinking they will easily nail
>a 19 that actually turns out to be a death route.
>
>If people value boldness so much they couldn't really argue otherwise

That's the one , dude ! --- Now ' the potty-chair ' is looking much more credible !


remdan

28-Apr-2004
6:54:11 PM

what you tyin to say hex?

kieranl

28-Apr-2004
10:51:39 PM

Nothing is going to solve the grading problems of the world. It's a very subjective thing and it doesn't change much whether you are sport or adventure climbing.
For myself, I have over-graded and undergraded new routes. It's just reflects how I feel on the day. If enough people repeat the climbs we should end up with a consenus grade.
Safety rating is also subjective. I know that when I've been feeling in the zone that I have thought "good 2RP" and cruised on up. In my normal mode I'd be wondering fearfully where the next runner was.
Dalai makes some good points about French sport-climbing : just because it's sport doesn't mean that you don't have run-outs.
I do like the british combination of an overall grade combined with a technical grade enhanced by a description. I find US-style topos rather sterile.


Rich

4-May-2004
3:29:22 PM

On 4/05/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:
>I don't think The Ewbank system works very well. I think most people would
>find a pure trad 19 harder than a sport 19? As Mike intimates more people
>might get into trad 'and learn the craft' if there was some distinction
>in grades and kudos for doing so.
>
Why would there be a need to encourage more people to get into trad climbing for kudos? People should be climbing whatever they want because they enjoy it not for notoriety.. or am i reading this wrong? As per earlier posts, everyone knows that trad is harder than sport of equivalent grades so why do we need to highlight it by completely overhauling the grading system?


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-May-2004
4:30:56 PM

On 4/05/2004 Rich wrote:
>everyone knows that trad is harder than sport of equivalent grades so why
>do we need to highlight it by completely overhauling the grading system?
I'm not sure this is an absolute (trad equivalent being harder than sport), but it seems to me that trad and the Ewbank System were around 1st, hence it is encumbent on the Sport Climbers to come to terms with the existing system rather than throw it out altogether, as it really isn't that hard, so why not learn its nuances and get a concensus happening? (The controversial gradings will eventually end up as concensus gradings as kieranl points out).

Edward Frillypants example sounds to me that it would be more accurate if CW was 25 and HaNF was 24. This would be an example of concensus at work.
Ewbank never said that climbs could not be regraded more appropriately.

>Anything that is a sport route ie. fully equipped with rings and a chain sh/could get a French grade (IMHO!)
This is bad news because we have an inheritance more closely linked to onsight gradings than any French system.

> As Mike intimates more people might get into trad 'and learn the craft' if there was some distinction in grades and kudos for doing so.
I am of the belief that Gradings are NOT simply for kudos. They serve a host of other purposes as well. Ego driven individuals might like to come up with an ego rating system rather than ditching a simple system that basically works!

(steps down from the soap box :))


nmonteith

4-May-2004
4:46:01 PM

HaNF is defiantly grade 25!


IdratherbeclimbingM9

4-May-2004
4:50:05 PM

On 4/05/2004 nmonteith wrote:
>HaNF is defiantly grade 25!
In which case CW should be 26 if Edwards assertion is correct.
I cannot offer a concensus opinion as I have not climbed either route, however I believe a forum site like this could very easily be a starting point to arrive at concensus and regrade climbs if appropriate...

There are 96 messages in this topic.