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A modest proposal


oweng

27-Apr-2004
5:23:52 PM

I think a sports climb would be a route where if you clip the bolts properly, you shouldent hurt yourself if you fall (other than wounded pride of course). An all bolted route such as Cordial Kids at Ben Cairn would not therefore be a sport climb because if you fall off between the 1st and second bolt, youl hit the deck.


shmalec

27-Apr-2004
6:00:02 PM

Grades are over rated! I think we should have no grades at all. It would make for a much more interesting and adventurous climbing experience.


hex-TROLL

27-Apr-2004
6:04:13 PM

Quite---and this is one of the ' reasons ' that Tim Mc Snape rarely publicizes new route info...

kieranl

27-Apr-2004
10:04:56 PM

How do you classify one of Ben Graham's very hard routes at Rumney where you risk a groundfall making the second clip?


oweng

28-Apr-2004
8:08:06 AM

As a badly bolted sports route? Good point Keiran, there are always going to be routes / situations that defy any attempt to categorise them.

I kind of like the idea of adding something to the Ewebank grade to indicate risk. I think in parts of the US they add a R (R-rated) to the grade to indicate a dangerous route, and add an X(X-rated) to indicate a 'death' route. I think a system like that could work quite well. Well bolted sport routes would not require any letter added to the Ewebank grade (or maybe a G-rating could be added for completeness). A well protected trad climb, or a sport route with a dodgy clip might be a PG. etc.

The obvious drawbacks of this would be its attack on history, and the fact that the grading system would start to resemble the English system (looks complex & untidy).


shiltz

28-Apr-2004
9:14:17 AM

I like the simplicity of the Ewbank system despite its shortcomings. The route description normally makes up for the lack of explicit detail.
The idea of adding a risk rating is not a bad one as long as it is simple. Movie ratings like oweng suggests are a nice approach. Anything like this will take a long time to be implemented though. Some guide book authors will take it on, others won't. Some guide books may not be updated for 10 or 20 years. So, I'd say we're stuck with the current system for the forseeable future.
If a risk rating was ever adopted it would need to be pretty flexible. You don't want to end up with X, XX, XXX, etc. Todays R-rated route might be regarded as PG in ten years time when somebody has invented some new piece of climbing pro (many former death routes are now easily protected with cams). Eventually the advent of anti-gravity belts will render the whole system unneccessary...


Rupert

28-Apr-2004
9:30:26 AM

Guys please, we already faff around arguing about the technical grade for hours on end, and across pages and pages of this forum and we still cant agree :) - you now want to add another element to this? Who is going to retrospectively look at the thousands of climbs (in Victoria alone) and be the one who deems how 'scary' each one is. Do we have to contact all the first ascentionists again. I don't think so. Could it be something introduced for new routes from now on? Possibly. I guess then we would have climbs done in a kind of BC or AD fashion - (AE) After Ewbank? Hmm I don't know.

I think we should leave it alone and use THE GUIDEBOOK as a way of expanding the description IF the climb really warrants it.

deadpoint

28-Apr-2004
9:46:35 AM

Hexy, down low to slow


Mike

28-Apr-2004
9:55:02 AM

I like the idea of the skull & cross bones symbol employed by some guide books (eg NorthWest Vic) beside the climb name / grade. Though this didn't stop Adio (who hadn't looked at the guide) leading up the couch sized, fully detached flake of "It Moves!" at Melvilles Caves a couple of weekends ago. I mentioned the documented "Spectre of Death" just as he was lackbacking the upper portion of said block and discovering that it does indeed live up to it's namesake. :-) Fortunately I was above setting a belay on another route and tossed him a quick toprope.

So, maybe if the route is completely asking for a coffin, such a symbol and the lack of stars would be enough. Otherwise words like "poorly protected" in the description are ample warning for me.


Tel

28-Apr-2004
10:10:56 AM

With the advent of the crag & route beta being added to the forum I see no reason why it cannot act as a guide book of sorts. From what I can gather most chockstoners are out every weekend almost, so this forum could in reality be used as an uptodate source for routes. All it would require is a poll to ascertain how people think it should work, and the end result would then be final. IE, movie type ratings, Ewbanks, pics such as coffins etc, or even simply better route descriptions.
Then when a guide book is due for reprinting Chockstones very own Crag & Route Beta can act a source material.

tel

dalai

28-Apr-2004
10:27:30 AM

It's all too subjective. One persons horror show is another persons doddle. The Ewback system has it's failings like every grading system but overall is still the best option out there!

As long as guide descriptions mention possible dangers, might as well leave it be. Though I do like the French grades for sport routes as it then clearly defines it as sport rather than trad.

And as for what constitutes a sport route - no natural gear required and must have loweroff anchors (hence unless anchors are now there - Monkey Puzzle isn't a sport route Hex)


Rich

28-Apr-2004
11:20:07 AM

I can't imagine there would ever be a consensus on this issue and who would be the person/people to implement it. Realistically, you should be aware of the relative dangers between sport and trad and adapt your practices to suit. Ask someone what grade they climb and they will most likely give you two grades.. sport and trad. This shows that there is no need for an amended grading system as we already understand that trad is relatively more dangerous and generally harder than sport given the same grade.


hex-TROLL

28-Apr-2004
11:43:34 AM

Nicely put ,dude--- the main thing is that the level of conciousness on these issues is now a lot etc,etc,etc

James

28-Apr-2004
11:55:11 AM

all these points are valid, but a different grading system may be useful so that (as Mikl said) people still 'learn the craft'. It'd be a shame for people not to learn trad climbing just because they keep having epics on 'small numbers'. Trad climbing is another valid style of climbing, with challenges & rewards that are so much deeper than sport-climbing's seemingly rentless menial pursuit of numbers. It deserves to be preserved. Anything that helps toward this end can't be bad.


manacubus

28-Apr-2004
12:09:57 PM

I actually like Mikl's idea. There's little doubt it would push the development of hard trad routes.


hex-TROLL

28-Apr-2004
1:02:20 PM

Snigger ! --- good to see you're all getting in touch with your inner- HEX--- Australian climbing is much improved since Feb 2004 !--- retro-bolting ?--- what's that ?!

Luv,HEX

dalai

28-Apr-2004
1:43:22 PM

On 28/04/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:

>Sport climbing is a French invention. (Incidentally, I was reading some
>interesting comments recently about French climbing - seems everywhere
>is grid bolted and, unbelievably, it semes that, in certain areas at least,
>the person who 'equipped' a route actually has 'intellectual property rights'
>covering e.g.its publication in guidebooks!!!) Therefore French grades
>for sport climbing?

Why is it that every time someone talks disparagingly about French climbing it's always 'I read' or 'I heard'. Travel abroad and see for yourself - in the process of scaring yourself 6 or 8 metres above a bolt on hard territory you might just reconsider.


manacubus

28-Apr-2004
2:09:44 PM

Musings: I'm not quite sure how this could or would take off. I guess it would take one brave guidebook publisher to start the (undoubtedly contentious) trend and apply the new grading system in a single guide. Collect feedback, and go from there. You'd probably want to first apply the new system to an area which hosts a good mixture of climbing styles. And you'd most likely want to start small i.e. not Arapiles!

Certainly, you'd want to be brave because I'm sure any breach of our beloved Ewbank system would cause a major backlash before the benefits were realised.


hex-TROLL

28-Apr-2004
2:38:59 PM

Go for a swim in the cauldron ,cube-arse, it's all there , dude !

dalai

28-Apr-2004
3:17:10 PM

My issue is that by basing your comments on what 'you read' only perpetuates the misinformation...

On 28/04/2004 Edward Frillypants wrote:

>France wouldn't be top of the list thanks.

Your loss. Some of the most amazing climbs/climbing areas on the globe.

There are 96 messages in this topic.