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Beginner question about top roping.

j.d

17-Jul-2010
11:46:22 PM

Hi, I have what is no doubt an annoying question for experienced climbers to answer...

I've done a two day top roping trip with a guide and we anchored from very large solid trees at the top of the cliff. We spent along time on safety and appropriate natural object to use and associated knots and so on.
I feel very comfortable setting up top ropes at THAT particular cliff now.

I'm wondering if it appropriate to anchor from bolts at the top of a cliff?

I've googled alot and there is conflicting info I think, some say if there are bolts at the top, use them. Another site says never to use climbing bolts to anchor from http://climbing.about.com/od/topropeclimbing/a/TopRopeNoBolts.htm .

Can someone help me out a bit?

Go easy on me please..


ajfclark

18-Jul-2010
12:04:43 AM

Sure. The page you've linked is talking about people the run the rope they're top roping on directly through the fixed lower off anchors. This causes lots of wear to the anchors and means they have to be replaced sooner. Attach some carabiners to the anchors and run the rope through those. That way the rope runs through your carabiners and wears them rather than the anchors.

j.d

18-Jul-2010
12:34:00 AM

Ahh, thankyou for that. I misunderstood the article.
Probably seems silly to ask something like that.


ajfclark

18-Jul-2010
9:10:37 AM

Nope. Not silly at all. That's what this forum is about... (between all the stirring each other up a bit and posting funny stories).

Hugh

18-Jul-2010
9:38:03 AM

I'm sure through the use of 'bolts' in your post, you mean plural? Never set a top rope off just one

Tommo

18-Jul-2010
11:11:06 AM

Saw a French? bloke at Piddo the other day belaying his young daughter on a top rope off a single ring. Not real smart, especially when you learn about bolting or do it yourself and realise that many, many bolts aren't placed that well. Yikes!

Hugh

18-Jul-2010
1:02:03 PM

was he using electrical wire?..

jrc

18-Jul-2010
7:41:21 PM

well climbers have been top rope belaying off single carrot bolts - using carabiners and extension slings as appropriate - at Lindfield for the last 45 years...


nmonteith

18-Jul-2010
9:26:40 PM

Isn't Lindfield 10m high? - you'd probably survive if the single bolt failed.

There are plenty of single bolt failure horror stories out there. When talking to a beginner I suggest you don't confuse the poor guy. To make it clear - ALWAYS have at least two anchor points when setting up a top-rope, lowering off a sport route or belaying someone from the top of the cliff. Anchor points can be bolts, trees, slings around rocks or trad gear (cams, wires, hexes). Bolts aren't always bomber, almost none are properly tested. There are death bolts hidden at many crags around Australia. I've pulled plenty out when rebolting.

j.d

19-Jul-2010
12:07:35 AM

Thanks a lot to all those that replied - very helpful.
I do understand the need for two anchors, and I think I'm being almost paranoid about safety and learning the correct way to do things before trying them, which is why I asked the question.
Just sucks living in a National Park and knowing no one that climbs. Makes it hard to learn when guides cost so much money down in Tasmania.

jrc

19-Jul-2010
9:33:11 AM

Lindfield is mainly 6 - 7m Neil. You probably wouldn't die but you might hurt something. Especially if you hit a rock protruding from the ground. The isolated pinnacle overhang has 3 bolts on top - that's the one that probably takes the most falls.

By way of comparison Climb Fit at St Leonards is 6m high with all sorts of loweroffs & built in crashmats....


nmonteith

19-Jul-2010
9:45:08 AM

On 19/07/2010 jrc wrote:
>Lindfield is mainly 6 - 7m Neil. You probably wouldn't die but you might
>hurt something. Especially if you hit a rock protruding from the ground.
>The isolated pinnacle overhang has 3 bolts on top - that's the one that
>probably takes the most falls.
>
>
>By way of comparison Climb Fit at St Leonards is 6m high with all sorts
>of loweroffs & built in crashmats....

I'm failing to see your point? I think Climb Fit has all sorts of lower-offs and crashmats because they actually care about their customers and don't want them to have broken bits and pieces when one point fails (ie see recent forum post about accident at Anaconda store where a one point system broke, badly injuring a climber)


aarond

20-Jul-2010
10:10:51 AM

On 18/07/2010 Tommo wrote:
>Saw a French? bloke at Piddo the other day belaying his young daughter
>on a top rope off a single ring. Not real smart, especially when you learn
>about bolting or do it yourself and realise that many, many bolts aren't
>placed that well. Yikes!

on that topic of single bolts. something i have see at meadlow which IMO is pretty poor. on the climb mannana i think its called. its a real good 13 for beginners and have taken many people there and put them on it on toprope. the problem is there is 1 ring bolt and 1 quick clip at the top which i find encourages people to just clip the one quick clip anchor and not bother tieing off properly on the other one.

Winston Smith

20-Jul-2010
10:53:26 AM

On 20/07/2010 aarond wrote:
>On 18/07/2010 Tommo wrote:
>>Saw a French? bloke at Piddo the other day belaying his young daughter
>>on a top rope off a single ring. Not real smart, especially when you
>learn
>>about bolting or do it yourself and realise that many, many bolts aren't
>>placed that well. Yikes!
>
>on that topic of single bolts. something i have see at meadlow which IMO
>is pretty poor. on the climb mannana i think its called. its a real good
>13 for beginners and have taken many people there and put them on it on
>toprope. the problem is there is 1 ring bolt and 1 quick clip at the top
>which i find encourages people to just clip the one quick clip anchor and
>not bother tieing off properly on the other one.

If they don't choose to use both anchors then that's simply natural selection doing its job.
Not being bothered to do something is not the fault of the person who bolted the route.


nmonteith

20-Jul-2010
11:06:53 AM

They might want to read this first...
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=1&MessageID=68934&PagePos=&Sort=&Replies=95&MsgPagePos=0


aarond

20-Jul-2010
12:18:16 PM

i totally agree that that is your choice to clip both properly. but why would someone put one quick clip and 1 ring... why not save money and put 2 rings or if they want to use a quick clip have it attached to both anchors?


nmonteith

20-Jul-2010
12:23:27 PM

On 20/07/2010 aarond wrote:
>i totally agree that that is your choice to clip both properly. but why
>would someone put one quick clip and 1 ring... why not save money and put
>2 rings or if they want to use a quick clip have it attached to both anchors?

I'm sure not a great deal of thought went into it (talking from personal experience!). That was probably all that was in the bottom of the bolt kit that day. A cobbled together anchor from odds and ends.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

20-Jul-2010
12:32:22 PM

On 20/07/2010 aarond wrote:
>or if they want to use a quick clip have it attached to both anchors?

If it is an item such as in the last suggested reading link, ie with only one point of attachment for the rope ... (no matter how many times it is anchored), in that case it still did not have redundancy...

nm wrote;
>A cobbled together anchor from odds and ends

... or possibly a partial upgrade/replacement of a faulty/worn item?


rodw

20-Jul-2010
1:22:56 PM

On 20/07/2010 aarond wrote:
>i totally agree that that is your choice to clip both properly. but why
>would someone put one quick clip and 1 ring... why not save money and put
>2 rings or if they want to use a quick clip have it attached to both anchors?

I can see the merit for instance if you climb the route and the belayer is going to red point, just clip and lower pull rope and away you go and you will have back up on the ring below if anchors pops on the way down.

...also two anchors points have been provided...if the leader is to dumb to realise lowering off one anchors to clean is not a good idea...maybe thats just a way of thining out the useless gene pool?

I think your whinge is just taking the responsibility away from the climber a bit?

Winston Smith

20-Jul-2010
1:24:12 PM

On 20/07/2010 IdratherbeclimbingM9 wrote:
>On 20/07/2010 aarond wrote:
>>or if they want to use a quick clip have it attached to both anchors?
>
>If it is an item such as in the last suggested reading link, ie with only
>one point of attachment for the rope ... (no matter how many times it is
>anchored), in that case it still did not have redundancy...
>
>nm wrote;
>>A cobbled together anchor from odds and ends
>
>... or possibly a partial upgrade/replacement of a faulty/worn item?

The quick clip stops bumblies plummetting as they clip the anchors as most of them are pumped silly because the crux is towards the top of the route.

After quickclipping they can then grab two draws and attach them to each anchor bolt and allow the rest of their crew to top rope on crossed draws.

Rather than beating up TND about "odds and ends" etc he - and Peter Chaly- should be thanked for giving novices a well-bolted and longish route, with a sympathetic final clip in an area with routes not usually featuring such attributes - Ole Biscuit Barrel/Pitang Pitang/Old Salt anyone?

There are 25 messages in this topic.