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thecrag.com


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Oct-2010
10:44:07 AM

On 8/10/2010 ambyeok wrote:
>Thanks Tnd, I feel stupid but I couldnt for the life of me find that on the site !!???

It's OK ambyeok. This is Chockstone, and we are a pretty forgiving lot around here, though if you want a second opinion, review, or even a rewrite, I am sure it can be arranged _{(I know of a bloke who seems happy to oblige between serving cups of coffee!)}.

Heh, heh, heh.


tnd

8-Oct-2010
11:21:28 AM

On 8/10/2010 ambyeok wrote:
>Thanks Tnd, I feel stupid but I couldnt for the life of me find that on
>the site !!???

The only link to it is on the Login page; it would be better on the Home page.


ajfclark

14-Oct-2010
10:49:56 AM

On 7/10/2010 nmonteith wrote:
>Can anyone point me towards a full guide that's been made using it?

They linked to this one on their facebook page recently: http://thecrag.com/area/8040888/guide

I haven't looked through it well but I thought others might be interested...


ajfclark

25-Oct-2010
10:12:06 AM

From their facebook thread:

Introducing Crag Karma- Every time users contribute to the index they are helping build and improve our free online guide. The new Crag Karma score is a way of recognising users' contributions to the index. Click below for details.

http://www.thecrag.com/article/CragKarma


gordoste

25-Oct-2010
11:59:02 AM

I spent some time adding topos for my local crag

The Guide view looks very impressive

http://thecrag.com/area/11768425/guide

Wendy

26-Oct-2010
7:56:11 AM

thecrag is still basically a list of routes for most crags and I wonder what the value is in having multiple online guides that the community builds up? The aca, for all it's faults, which in my view are mostly the annoying search system, is far more developed. I looked up a run of Grampians crags, from those that the only available guide is on ACA to some of the most popular crags there and none of them have route descriptions or topos on thecrag. That's a lot of work to catch up on for one little region alone. And sure, thecrag may be global, but you can get the same thing in the states at mountain project or europe at camp2camp. So there's doubling up happening all over the place. Maybe thecrag has missed its moment? The sensible course of events seems to be for everyone to share databases if such a thing is possible.

I've got this vague recollection of thecrag guys hoping to make a living out of the site - does anyone know how they expected to do that given it currently has no fees and no advertising? Where's it heading?

kieranl

26-Oct-2010
10:16:29 AM

A good solution would be for the sites to develop XML import/export capabilities along the lines of that used by thisarvo. There's a post by Jon Nermut about it somewhere.
To avoid any argy-bargy over ownership a person could only export route descriptions that they have created. That's a bit (a lot) messy but it would help to get around the problem of having to reenter masses of data.

brendan.heywood

26-Oct-2010
2:11:54 PM

Yes we are definitely interesting in being able to share data with other databases. There are difficulties with this depending on which two databases you want to share between but as an ideal we are definitely open to this. One area we are putting a lot of effort into is a simple API which will be part of the solution to sharing between sights. We have already had some discussion with a couple of the other climbing databases about sharing.

On the money side, we have no grand illusions about the site making us rich overnight, at this stage all we'd like is to cover our hosting costs.

Brendan
thecrag.com


tnd

26-Oct-2010
2:49:00 PM

At least ACA and crag.com can be updated by anyone and thus the work shared on the Wiki principle. Compare that with the Sydney Climbing (Sun, Surf and Sandstone) site, which has not been updated since 2007 despite new info being submitted to it by e-mail.


BundyBear

26-Oct-2010
4:20:52 PM

On 26/10/2010 tnd wrote:
>At least ACA and crag.com can be updated by anyone and thus the work shared
>on the Wiki principle. Compare that with the Sydney Climbing (Sun, Surf
>and Sandstone) site, which has not been updated since 2007 despite new
>info being submitted to it by e-mail.

Yeah, I have given up on that site. I have sent them heaps of updates, but nothing ever gets updated.


tnd

27-Oct-2010
9:30:50 AM

On 26/10/2010 WM wrote:
>On 26/10/2010 BundyBear wrote:
>>On 26/10/2010 tnd wrote:
>>>Compare that with the Sydney Climbing (Sun, Surf and Sandstone) site,
>which has not been updated since 2007
>
>>Yeah, I have given up on that site. I have sent them heaps of updates,
>>but nothing ever gets updated.
>
>he's too busy being unfunny on chockstone

Can't beat brotherly love ;-)


Superstu

28-Oct-2010
8:08:33 AM

On 26/10/2010 tnd wrote:
>At least ACA and crag.com can be updated by anyone and thus the work shared
>on the Wiki principle.

I have yet to figure out how to add anything to ACA. I've ticked the box on my profile but nothing has happened for ages.

>Compare that with the Sydney Climbing (Sun, Surf
>and Sandstone) site, which has not been updated since 2007 despite new
>info being submitted to it by e-mail.

Where there's a Will there's a way. Either we carry it across to ACA, or the rockies host it with regular updates.

I wonder which model will work best:
(i) a free for-all to add/correct
(ii) limited update access to approved users
(iii) or submit to a moderator who adds at their discretion ...?

How does thesarvo.com work? It the best online guide system I've seen so far, at least all the data seems polished and the site fairly easy to navigate.

hotgemini

28-Oct-2010
10:11:50 AM

On 28/10/2010 superstu wrote:

>I have yet to figure out how to add anything to ACA. I've ticked the box
>on my profile but nothing has happened for ages.

Done, let me know how you go.

>>Compare that with the Sydney Climbing (Sun, Surf
>>and Sandstone) site, which has not been updated since 2007 despite new
>>info being submitted to it by e-mail.

>Where there's a Will there's a way. Either we carry it across to ACA,
>or the rockies host it with regular updates.

Peter Monks said that he was happy to provide the information from the SSS guide once the ACAQ clarified the licensing its route database. Once it was sorted, a man to his word, Peter approached the acaq webmasters to make good on his offer. Now it's just a matter of sorting out the technical bits and the volunteers finding time to make it happen.

-Adam.

brendan.heywood

28-Oct-2010
3:02:47 PM

David,
I can't comment on the past - I've only been with theCrag a couple months. However we are discussing and reworking the copyright and licensing. We are probably leaning towards a dual license system where an individual can contribute wiki style probably under a Creative commons license or similar, as well as a tighter license so that publishers can use our tools to help produces guides but retain control of their content. We've got a lot going on at the moment and our copyright will definitely be updated in the coming weeks to something more open. I'll post something here when it's ready.


pmonks

29-Oct-2010
7:43:57 AM

On 26/10/2010 BundyBear wrote:
>Yeah, I have given up on that site. I have sent them heaps of updates,
>but nothing ever gets updated.

Just to be clear, there is no "them" for SSS, there is only me. And much as it pains me to admit it, for some time sydneyclimbing.com has been low enough down my list of priorities that it rarely gets much attention (beyond me continuing to pay the hosting fees).

As a result, since 2008 or so I've been looking for a good alternative place for the information - ACA was always the obvious choice but as I've pointed out before, the licensing situation was (until recently) unclear, and I'm not willing to contribute the information I collected over the 10 years when I was actively managing SSS to anyone unless they clearly license it in a way that keeps it in the public domain. To do anything less would be a disservice to the numerous people who contributed the information in the first place.

The new ACA team seems to have similar ideals, and in fact are now using a license that I believe to be ideal for this kind of information (Creative Commons ShareAlike, which didn't exist in 1997 when I started work on SSS, otherwise I probably would have used it too), and as hotgemini mentioned we've been talking for quite some time about how to get the SSS data across to ACA. This has mostly gotten mired down in technical minutiae, but this thread may well be the final shove that makes that happen (we're PMing again now).

I also send the data to thecrag.com, under an agreement whereby they would ensure the SSS license (the GNU FDL) was being adhered to for all Sydney climbing information. That said, the more generally unclear licensing on thecrag has made me somewhat leery of using it as a more permanent home for the SSS information.


Superstu

29-Oct-2010
10:32:11 AM

Climbing websites are breeding like rabbits at the moment; they are popping up everywhere. The problem of route information being distributed haphazardly or recorded in multiple places is only going to get worse.

Right now say I wanted info on a route at my local sydney sandstone crag. I could look:
1. on ACA
2. on the sydney rockies website new routes section
3. on pmonks sun surf & sandy climbs website
4. rod wills crag x
5. thrutch magazine
6. chockstone crag & route beta pages
7. thecrag.com
8. find that old rock mag guide by mikl

Sheesh !

I'm better off typing something in google and see what comes up!

Much as I marvel at the phenomenal growth of the interweb and the ability to disseminate information in a way that we only dreamed of 20 years ago, its seemingly chaotic market-driven development can be a real bugger (just ask any propeller head who has to write software for it: its a mess).

Should we all form a working group to build a central repository, following an agreed format, accessible to all via a web interface (for humans) and an API (for machines) so that the individual web site managers can download data and upload contributions?

What's in it for web site owners? Basically your site will have to attract visitors for other reasons. Whether thats so users can build ticklists and tick pyramids, or chat and trade beta on particular routes, tell stories, trip reports etc or just be a stupid list of 50 most popular climbs... After all didn't we all agree that climbing route information should be free and freely available; the 'copyright' on route info that people have tried in the past is bollox (rock magazine guides, the boganville saga, thecrag.com licensing, and so on).

Before the recent explosion in web-based route info, the tussle between the "select guides" and the "all route info guides" was being thrashed out. Climbing websites will become the "select guides" and the central repository as the "all route info guides" which were previously published by climbing clubs (usually at a loss) as a service to the climbing community.


rodw

29-Oct-2010
10:51:53 AM

For the record most of my stuff on Cragx is already on ACA now...I think??

CGG

8-Nov-2010
5:36:59 PM

Hi all

We've updated our copyright etc to reflect our philosophy of acting as 'data custodians' for a range of copyright holders. This is a 'mixed copyright' model that we think

1. Supports the principle of sharing route info among the climbing community (Creative Commons licence for user contributions)
2. Allows publishers to put their information up under a different licence if they wish
3. Enables thecrag.com to explore revenue raising channels to maintain and develop the site (users give thecrag.com permission to re-distribute and re-use your contributions)
4. Allows users who wish to contribute under a different licence to set themselves up as publishers

Have a look at the 'Our Vision', 'Copyright', and 'Site Usage' links at the bottom of all pages and let us know what you think. We'll try to keep an eye on this forum from time to time; you can also post on the wall and discussion board on our facebook page or email us at support @ thecrag.com

Campbell, Brendan and Simon
http://thecrag.com/
http://www.facebook.com/thecragcom

rolsen1

8-Nov-2010
7:56:45 PM

On 29/10/2010 superstu wrote:
>Climbing websites are breeding like rabbits at the moment; they are popping
>up everywhere. The problem of route information being distributed haphazardly
>or recorded in multiple places is only going to get worse.
>
>Right now say I wanted info on a route at my local sydney sandstone crag.
>I could look:
>1. on ACA
>2. on the sydney rockies website new routes section
>3. on pmonks sun surf & sandy climbs website
>4. rod wills crag x
>5. thrutch magazine
>6. chockstone crag & route beta pages
>7. thecrag.com
>8. find that old rock mag guide by mikl
>
>Sheesh !
>
>I'm better off typing something in google and see what comes up!
>
>Much as I marvel at the phenomenal growth of the interweb and the ability
>to disseminate information in a way that we only dreamed of 20 years ago,
>its seemingly chaotic market-driven development can be a real bugger (just
>ask any propeller head who has to write software for it: its a mess).
>
>Should we all form a working group to build a central repository,
>following an agreed format, accessible to all via a web interface (for
>humans) and an API (for machines) so that the individual web site managers
>can download data and upload contributions?
>
>What's in it for web site owners? Basically your site will have to attract
>visitors for other reasons. Whether thats so users can build ticklists
>and tick pyramids, or chat and trade beta on particular routes, tell stories,
>trip reports etc or just be a stupid list of 50 most popular climbs...
> After all didn't we all agree that climbing route information should be
>free and freely available; the 'copyright' on route info that people have
>tried in the past is bollox (rock magazine guides, the boganville saga,
>thecrag.com licensing, and so on).
>
>Before the recent explosion in web-based route info, the tussle between
>the "select guides" and the "all route info guides" was being thrashed
>out. Climbing websites will become the "select guides" and the central
>repository as the "all route info guides" which were previously published
>by climbing clubs (usually at a loss) as a service to the climbing community.
>

I don't think a central repository is ever the answer, but I agree with you other ideas. I'd be interested in working with others on this - I briefly played with the ACA code with aims of publishing an API (which they agreed to) but I felt it required a total rewrite, something I wasn't prepared to do nor felt I was being asked to do. No criticism intended but the code just wasn't in a form that would allow it to be easily translated.

By having a common adopted API, I think we'd see some real innovation. I think this definitely a possibility as ACA is (or has been in the past) open to it.

brendan.heywood

9-Nov-2010
9:27:25 AM

rolsen1 I completely agree that we need more sharing of climbing data and better tools to manage the data. Before I joined forced with thecrag I had started to make my own database for my local crags and wanted an open format for sharing data. I started this google group to share my thoughts:

http://code.google.com/p/climbing-api/

This attempt was based around extending Atom and is pretty rough. I've spoken with a couple people from different databases and most of them are keen to support some sort of interchange format but there are a lot of challenges to work through, like licensing differences and different data models.

I've since joined forces with thecrag and we are now working on a rich api for both reading and updating data. We have lots of ideas from some simple api features like atom feeds for updates, and i-frame based crag summaries that you could embed on your own site, all the way up to a fully featured json api that say 3rd party mobile device apps could use for logging ascents and adding new routes, or a dynamic export so you can view and edit a particular crag but embedded inside a local climbing clubs website.

I'd welcome any input from anyone interested (aus climbing asoc) in helping develop common standards for sharing climbing data or in using our api. I don't know of any other climbing sites that have an open api so we'll build one and then continually evolve it to support any open climbing standards that emerge as time goes on. Our first version of the public api should be ready early next year.

Brendan

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