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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Poll Option Votes Graph
Athiest 90
69% 
Buddhist 5
4% 
Christian 23
18% 
Muslim 1
1% 
Jewish 1
1% 
Hindu 1
1% 
Other 8
6% 
Don't know due too many choices. 2
2% 

 Page 9 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 206
Author
O.T - Religion & Climbing Poll.
Brazened
11/12/2009
8:22:04 AM
The word belief from Dictionary.com

Belief

noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to
rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.
4. a religious tenet or tenets; religious creed or faith: the Christian belief.

So... If you have an opinion or conviction that there is no God. (Point No 1.)

You may have, could have, do have "a belief".

You've formed a conscious opinion (belief) that there is no God.

That then is your belief.
Wendy
11/12/2009
8:28:45 AM
On 10/12/2009 Brazened wrote:

>Also interesting reading is the Standard Encyclopedia of Philosophy's
>paper on beliefs.
>
>http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/belief/
>
This paper reminded me of a conclusion I reached many years ago whilst studying philosophy - that philosophical papers were 5 tmes as long as they needed to be due to a tendency to paraphase the first sentence 5 times and call it a paragraph.

What I think that site (and Dawkins) are saing is that the distinction between agnostic and atheist is largely meaningless. The nature of God (taken from the sources of information we have about God, being religious texts, religious institutions and religious people), s/he is unknowable in any way that is meaning outside of belief. That is why there is no evidence put forth that is accepted under other frameworks of knowledge. If you believe God exists, you see evidence for it in the planet, people, the environment, everyday events. If you don't believe, you don't see how this is reasonable evidence. But there is no way of knowing (other perhaps then dying and finding yourself at the pearly gates) outside of faith. Thus to say that is is unknowable if God exists or not is effectively to say you don't believe. If you believed, you would know God exists. If you don't know God exists, to all intents and purposes, you don't believe God exists. Doesn't that make you an atheist? Maybe you can suspect that God exists, but I don't think anyone's coined a term for that yet.

Whether atheism is a belief system of not seems a meaningless argument. I don't believe in a god. I believe that God doesn't exist. They both work for me. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow morning and I don't believe that the night will last forever. Rather than being be all amazing things, belief is just a word that we have given powerful connotations to in certain contexts, but we work with "beliefs", as in things that we take for granted, accept as truth, assume will or do happen all the time.

widewetandslippery
11/12/2009
9:28:21 AM
This where the diction pisses me off, it is so theist centric. I propose heathen and aheathen (for those currently who identify as theist).

I'm a heathen.

You are aheathen.

wallwombat
11/12/2009
10:04:14 AM
How many ways do you have to explain that being an atheist doesn't mean you have no beliefs, it mean you don't believe in a God. It's not rocket science.

I BELIEVE the South Sydney Rabbitohs are the best rugby league team in the world. That doesn't mean I'm not an athiest.


D.Lodge
11/12/2009
10:24:47 AM
>2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible
>to
>rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.

This is what i subscribe to because God is not susceptible to rigourous proof. Therefore i do not have too believe that he does'nt exist because no evidence exists of his existence.
There back to the debate on religon, no more what is an atheist this is just a furphy to take the emphasis off the fact that the god lovers are losing hahahahahaha

gordoste
15/12/2009
1:51:14 PM
On 11/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>How many ways do you have to explain that being an atheist doesn't mean
>you have no beliefs, it mean you don't believe in a God. It's not rocket
>science.

Actually you got that wrong (despite it not being rocket science). Atheists believe that there is no God. Agnostics don't believe there is a God, but they don't believe there is no God either. And (for completeness) agnostics are not a subset of atheists.

What you constructed is called a false dichotomy. Consider yourself schooled.

wallwombat
15/12/2009
2:13:14 PM
So, you are saying that not believing in a God is different to believing there is no God?






Eduardo Slabofvic
15/12/2009
2:26:32 PM
On 11/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:

>I BELIEVE the South Sydney Rabbitohs are the best rugby league team in
>the world. That doesn't mean I'm not an athiest.


This is an excellent analogy, as wallywombat BELIEVES that the bunnies are the best, but he also
KNOWS that they are complete crap, as is demonstrated by their appalling performances and the
desire of right thinking people that this team be placed in the rubbish bin of history.



wallwombat
15/12/2009
2:57:45 PM
On 15/12/2009 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>This is an excellent analogy, as wallywombat BELIEVES that the bunnies
>are the best, but he also
>KNOWS that they are complete crap, as is demonstrated by their appalling
>performances and the
>desire of right thinking people that this team be placed in the rubbish
>bin of history.


Pith off Eduardo.
Wendy
15/12/2009
4:14:51 PM
On 15/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>On 11/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>>How many ways do you have to explain that being an atheist doesn't mean
>>you have no beliefs, it mean you don't believe in a God. It's not rocket
>>science.
>
>Actually you got that wrong (despite it not being rocket science). Atheists
>believe that there is no God. Agnostics don't believe there is a God, but
>they don't believe there is no God either. And (for completeness) agnostics
>are not a subset of atheists.

>What you constructed is called a false dichotomy. Consider yourself schooled.

Agnostics actually believe that it's impossible to know if there's a god. What they believe about that god that they don't know exists however, is entirely seperate. So I guess you could be an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist. Except I think the nature of theism is such that to believe is consider to know. And probably from that point of view, to not know is to not believe. Or if you don't believe either way, maybe you really are an apathist.

Reschooled :)

>
gfdonc
15/12/2009
8:11:20 PM
The problem I have, though, is not with the atheists or the apathists, but the apiarists.

gordoste
15/12/2009
11:07:17 PM
yes. take the two statements
1. There is no God
2. There is a God

Person A (atheist) believes 1 but not 2.
Person B (theist) believes 2 but not 1.
Person C (agnostic) believes neither because they have never seen proof of either.

A and C do not believe in God. However only A believes there is no God. So yes, there is a difference.

gordoste
15/12/2009
11:20:06 PM
On 15/12/2009 Wendy wrote:
>On 15/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>>Actually you got that wrong (despite it not being rocket science). Atheists
>>believe that there is no God. Agnostics don't believe there is a God,
>but
>>they don't believe there is no God either. And (for completeness) agnostics
>>are not a subset of atheists.
>
>>What you constructed is called a false dichotomy. Consider yourself schooled.
>
>Agnostics actually believe that it's impossible to know if there's a god.
> What they believe about that god that they don't know exists however,
>is entirely seperate. So I guess you could be an agnostic atheist or an
>agnostic theist. Except I think the nature of theism is such that to believe
>is consider to know. And probably from that point of view, to not know
>is to not believe. Or if you don't believe either way, maybe you really
>are an apathist.
>
>Reschooled :)

As you point out, I do treat "believing" the same as "knowing". I think that's a reasonable assumption. If you accept it, subtle classifications such as you mentioned become unnecessary.
Apathist is not really used but I would think it should mean someone who doesn't care either way. Many atheists and agnostics could be called apathists. Richard Dawkins is a notable exception as he blames religion for everything, which I think is a little bit extreme.
I probably wouldn't bother pointing out intellectual sloppiness if it was anyone else who was guilty of it, but wallwombat is a bit of a pot-stirrer and his posts sometimes irritate me. I hope this is more constructive than posting a bitchy poll.

evanbb
16/12/2009
5:45:06 AM
I doubt anyone will get this, but

I believe in coyotes,
and time as an abstract.

wallwombat
16/12/2009
9:45:52 AM
It's from an REM song. 'I Believe'.

Off "Life's Rich Pageant", my favourite REM album. Unfortunately, my ex-wife f*cked off with my copy, along with all my other CDs, which proves to me, there is no God.

Or if there is, he/she hates me.





Evan, is your PM box full?

evanbb
16/12/2009
10:56:33 AM
Nah, just thinking.

Had some plans this weekend, but yours are better. It's a question of how/if I can get out of them.
widewetandslippery
16/12/2009
11:02:59 AM
On 15/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>yes. take the two statements
>1. There is no God
>2. There is a God
>
>Person A (atheist) believes 1 but not 2.
>Person B (theist) believes 2 but not 1.
>Person C (agnostic) believes neither because they have never seen proof
>of either.
>

Again this is discussed in terms that dog or god or whatever is an appreciable. It is not. There are sane people, insane people and bloody idiots that believe in god.
>A and C do not believe in God. However only A believes there is no God.
>So yes, there is a difference.

GravityHound
16/12/2009
11:42:22 AM
On 16/12/2009 wallwombat wrote:
>Unfortunately, my ex-wife
>f*cked off with my copy, along with all my other CDs

thats kicking you where it hurts.

Zebedee
16/12/2009
3:55:48 PM
On 15/12/2009 gordoste wrote:
>
>As you point out, I do treat "believing" the same as "knowing". I think
>that's a reasonable assumption. If you accept it, subtle classifications
>such as you mentioned become unnecessary.
Pretty sure that there is a meaningful and important distinction between believing and knowing. In fact most god botherers would have to concede that this is a crititical distinction for if belief=know than there would be no room for faith. But even without faith and religion there is a necessary distinction.

D.Lodge
16/12/2009
3:59:07 PM
Yes and because God can only exist because of faith, as soon as you prove he exists he will then cease to exist and disapear in a puff of logic (thanks to Douglas Adams)

 Page 9 of 11. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 206
There are 206 messages in this topic.

 

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