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Tim Holding was missing - now found


rodw

2-Sep-2009
12:53:27 PM

Okay his adventure didnt go according to plan...apart from EPIRB he did everything right..let ppl know were he was going, was well equipped for the adventure he proposed to have....shit happened...he got lost but did the right thing and stayed put until help arrived.....

...ppl in this forum using hindsight saying he should have done this and that....I seriously cant believe the rightous crap some are going on about.....Id expect it from the average couch sitter not ppl who engage in a sport 90% of the population think is risky...give the guy a break.

patto

2-Sep-2009
12:53:47 PM

On 2/09/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>Getting anyone to pay for their rescue starts a very ugly precedent (covered
>heavily in the the Bluies rescue topic a month or so ago). Why does he
>have to pay for one? Because he is a minister? rich? silly?. You'd need
>to benchmark these traits if you want to introduce a pay per rescue scenario.

You are not thinking outside the square Neil. You don't need silly benchmarks for these traits. You just need a vote.

Look the Herald Sun has the right idea!
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/poll/display/1,22024,5041309-5006029-1,00.html

Should Tim Holding pay the bill for his rescue?
Yes57% (1915 votes)
No42% (1397 votes)
Total votesTotal of 3312 votes.

On 2/09/2009 rodw wrote:
>...ppl in this forum using hindsight saying he should have done this and
>that....I seriously cant believe the rightous crap some are going on about.....Id
>expect it from the average couch sitter not ppl who engage in a sport 90%
>of the population think is risky...give the guy a break.

WELL SAID.

(Though the more I read about this the more I feel Tim Holding wasn't quite knowlegable enough about snow camping to be attempting this. Apparently he didn't know what snow pegs were. Though I still don't condemn him.)


Sabu

2-Sep-2009
12:59:56 PM

Now come on, getting someone to pay for the use of a super secret military infrared/nightvision surveillance aircraft is a little on the harsh side! :P

widewetandslippery

2-Sep-2009
1:21:49 PM

Are so many of you so anal that you've never thrown a few bits in a bag and gone for an unplanned walk? He seemed totally equiped to me.

The 2 things he seems most critised for are no sharp mountaineery things and no epirb.

Most bushwalkers in Australia have only seen an axe or crampons in The Eiger Sanction. He didn't go out of his depth. Whos to say the tumble is a direct result of the lack of this equipment.

People should not be made to carry tracking devices. Due to Holding his position as a politition though I think this is fair personal critisim of him.


nmonteith

2-Sep-2009
1:47:54 PM

I actually thinks its pretty awesome that a politician is out in the wilds having an adventure. He would be unlikely to be voting for draconian regulation on adventure sports or for extreme urban development in alpine areas. In effect he is 'one of us'.


cruze

2-Sep-2009
1:53:43 PM

On 2/09/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>I actually thinks its pretty awesome that a politician is out in the wilds
>having an adventure. He would be unlikely to be voting for draconian regulation
>on adventure sports or for extreme urban development in alpine areas. In
>effect he is 'one of us'.

Personal agendas and political agendas don't always line up. I remember Penny Wong being questioned on a homosexual issue on Q&A and she made that exact point.

In other words, Tim Holding could very well be politically against the measures that saved him.

Overall though I reckon he did the right thing. I have only done the walk in Summer but I could imagine the slopes on the Harrietville side of Mt Feathertop being very difficult to ascend in poor conditions without snow gear. If anything I would say that descending to below the snow line and waiting it out in a visible position was sensible.

Winston Smith

2-Sep-2009
2:28:00 PM

Live press conference NOW:

http://media.smh.com.au/national/breaking-news/livestream-tim-holding-709644.html?sy=smh&source=smh.com.au%2F

Bob Saki

2-Sep-2009
2:32:30 PM

On 2/09/2009 evanbb wrote:
>On 2/09/2009 Bob Saki wrote:
>>Holding should pay for his rescue though. That's how I roll
>
>Oh, it's a shakey precedent though Bob. Does suggest that poor people
>(eg most climbers) won't be rescued in future because they can't afford
>to pay for it.

On 2/09/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>Getting anyone to pay for their rescue starts a very ugly precedent (covered
>heavily in the the Bluies rescue topic a month or so ago). Why does he
>have to pay for one? Because he is a minister? rich? silly?. You'd need
>to benchmark these traits if you want to introduce a pay per rescue scenario.

Well fellas,

I don't disagree entirely with your view it set a difficult/ugly precendent but life is full of them, Cromwell & Co pushed some through in 1649 for example.

I think a stand needs to be made i.e. post the climb assess as impartially as possible how prepared the adventurere was prior to task and based on sliding scale a % of rescue fee is paid.

If I was in the same situation I would fit the bill myself so regardless of rank/title/wealth this applies.

At the end of the day he was potentially risking the condition of others. I also believe that this could have been prevented.

I recently did a 4 day solo hike in the barry range/howitt area and made sure that the choice I made reduced risk as I was solo. He should have done the same after that first step out on the summit ridge

Mind you as a Tax Payer I'll help spring for a minesterial EPIRB/Beacon ;-)


nmonteith

2-Sep-2009
2:47:34 PM

On 2/09/2009 Bob Saki wrote:
>If I was in the same situation I would fit the bill myself so regardless
>of rank/title/wealth this applies.

So if they said you owe them $375,590 you would be happy to pay it? <- that figure is a total guesstimate. Choppers, spy planes, 80 searchers - all adds up to a BIG bill IMHO. Emergency services are there for a reason - that's why we pay taxes. If we need to use them once in a blue moon then it works out ok. Imagine if you had to pay for the Police to come and investigate the murder of your wife, or the fireman to come and put out your burning house....? if you feel a bit guilty then just throw a nice (anonymous) donation to whoever you feel best needs it.

patto

2-Sep-2009
2:56:52 PM

On 2/09/2009 Bob Saki wrote:
>I recently did a 4 day solo hike in the barry range/howitt area and made
>sure that the choice I made reduced risk as I was solo. He should have
>done the same after that first step out on the summit ridge
>

So what if you managed to sprain your ankle? And you don't have any means of communication.

Lets say you're rambo and manage to hobble out regardless but it takes several more days than expected. Meanwhile your friends and family worry and a 80 people are mobilised. You hobble out on the 6th day, yet through no fault of you own and not even needing the rescue you are handed a bill for $300,000.

Does that sound reasonable?


evanbb

2-Sep-2009
3:06:54 PM

Also, you still need a search party for an EPIRB call out. It's not a transportation device. And if you're down a hole you'll still need rescue. Do you have to pay for that bit then?

egosan

2-Sep-2009
3:07:23 PM

On 2/09/2009 patto wrote:

>So what if you managed to sprain your ankle? And you don't have any means
>of communication.
>
>Lets say you're rambo and manage to hobble out regardless but it takes
>several more days than expected. Meanwhile your friends and family worry
>and a 80 people are mobilised. You hobble out on the 6th day, yet through
>no fault of you own and not even needing the rescue you are handed a bill
>for $300,000.
>
>Does that sound reasonable?

I can imagine a scenario where, I start packing both my alpine and woodland camouflage so that they can't find me and bill me above or below the snowline.


wallwombat

2-Sep-2009
3:26:28 PM

I think the best thing you can do is get ambulance cover and try be prepared and not do anything too dumb. If you want to, maybe donate $50 per annum to the rescue services.

Tim Holding (who I imagine had ambulance cover) was prepared and didn't really do anything too dumb.

Good on him.

An EPIRB would have been handy but he probably couldn't afford one after buying a head torch from Paddy Pallin.

But as evanb said, the rescue still would have involved a helicopter, even with an EPIRB.

ithomas

2-Sep-2009
3:40:51 PM

I didn't see or read all of the reports, but from what little I did see it seemed as though he was winched
out without his pack? Do you think the chopper crew would have sent someone down to retrieve his gear
or is there a pack containing the new tent he wanted to try out, a 'thermal sleeping bag', a brand new
head torch and a space blanket just sitting out there for anyone to claim?


wallwombat

2-Sep-2009
3:53:24 PM

On 2/09/2009 ithomas wrote:
>it seemed as though he was winched
>out without his pack? Do you think the chopper crew would have sent someone
>down to retrieve his gear
>or is there a pack containing the new tent he wanted to try out, a 'thermal
>sleeping bag', a brand new
>head torch and a space blanket just sitting out there for anyone to claim?

That's what I noticed too.

lacto

2-Sep-2009
3:57:28 PM

What the hell did he do wrong? Hundreds of people over the years have gone up in similar conditions and with much worse gear than he had. Can't imagine that too many of his cabinet collegues would want or be able to go with him . He go to the top sans ice axe , had a bit of a slip on the way down then made a bad decision about where to go .sidling rather than going up and ending up snowy creek , At least 2 people have died up feathertop that did have ice axes , yet can be done without axes . As to the dangers of walking up to federation hut really !!! it is just a hard slog on a gentle sloping tree protected track that is do able in any type of weather
I used to tell my parents never to authorise a helicopter rescue in tassie for me as they would be billed , if not authorised , police would pay

pisces

2-Sep-2009
4:59:56 PM

Here is what is irresponsible and dangerous: having a safe, comfortable life full of consumerism,
meaningless employment, living on concrete and under fluorescent lights, breathing conditioned air and
filling one's mind with TV, sports, the latest trash movie and celebrity antics. Bad for the soul, bad for the
planet.
As for ice axe, preparedness etc- I learnt how to travel on ice and climb or bushwalk solo by doing it.
Made mistakes- who doesn't. Could have died or needed rescue. Didn't. So what!

patto

2-Sep-2009
5:14:07 PM

On 2/09/2009 pisces wrote:
>Here is what is irresponsible and dangerous: having a safe, comfortable
>life full of consumerism,
>meaningless employment, living on concrete and under fluorescent lights,
>breathing conditioned air and
>filling one's mind with TV, sports, the latest trash movie and celebrity
>antics. Bad for the soul, bad for the
>planet.
>As for ice axe, preparedness etc- I learnt how to travel on ice and climb
>or bushwalk solo by doing it.
>Made mistakes- who doesn't. Could have died or needed rescue. Didn't.
>So what!

Is posting on internet forums including in that list? If so some of us might be in trouble!

2-Sep-2009
7:38:44 PM

On 2/09/2009 nmonteith wrote:
>So if they said you owe them $375,590 you would be happy to pay it? <-
>that figure is a total guesstimate. Choppers, spy planes, 80 searchers
>- all adds up to a BIG bill IMHO.

In these situations I always ask "what would the rescue helo / plane be doing if not rescuing
somebody?" - sitting in a hangar somewhere, depreciating? No doubt the occasional rescue operaton
is a valuable training exercise for the police and emergency services as well.

Have done "Featherest" twice in winter and you definitely need some form of traction and self-arrest to
summit safely. But good on him for being out there and giving it a go! We all make mistakes...

patto

2-Sep-2009
8:55:38 PM

Also I severely doubt somebody rang up asking for a high tech spy plane. More likely the need to test this this out anyway and need regular hours in the plane regardless. And the spooks offered to help out.

There are 82 messages in this topic.