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Tim Holding was missing - now found


Sabu

1-Sep-2009
8:01:36 PM

On 1/09/2009 patto wrote:
>I do find some the attitudes being cast around on this forum quite amazing
>considering this is a forum of ROCK CLIMBERS. Words like irresponsible
>and foolish to describe somebody not equipped with an EPIRB or ice axes!!!!?
>
>Some people would similarly argue that rockclimbing up a cliff is irrepsponsible
>and foolish when there is a perfectly good track that leads to the top.
>
>I was up at Feathertop during August and I would definately agree an ice
>axe would be highly recommended if you are attempt to summit. In fact
>this past month I would and have discouraged people from going up without
>one.
>
>However I can think of many climbs that are far more dangerous than the
>summit of feathertop under recent conditions. I'd rate my ascent of Snake
>Dike as similar type of risk to ascending feathertop without an axe (though
>even harder). It is fairly easy, but remote and the risk is high if you
>fall. (And I am certainly not one with big cojones at the moment. I was
>bloody scared today leading a well protected 16 total at Camels Hump!)
>
>Am I irresponsible and foolish for climbing a classic such as Snake Dike?
>
>Have you guys not ever been run out before while climbing?

Perhaps you're right and i might change "irresponsible" to simply "stupid". My reasoning for "irresponsible" is because as a result of his lack of judgement, a lot of money and resources have just been
spent. All of it I believe, could've been avoided simply by being better prepared to deal with those conditions.

If you want to relate this to climbing you could say its likened to jumping on a 21 trad route with a half a set of nuts when your limit is around 16 - stupid and likely to end badly.

Risk is an inevitable part of what we do but that doesn't mean we don't just do whatever and hope for the best. No, most of us train, get experience slowly, work up the grades and gradually learn how to
best deal with risks as they present themselves. Whatever risk remains some of us are willing to accept.

BTW this is not meant to be a personal attack or anything patto, there's been too much hate around here recently!

kieranl

1-Sep-2009
8:14:17 PM

On 1/09/2009 Sabu wrote:
>Perhaps you're right and i might change "irresponsible" to simply "stupid".
>My reasoning for "irresponsible" is because as a result of his lack of
>judgement, a lot of money and resources have just been
>spent. All of it I believe, could've been avoided simply by being better
>prepared to deal with those conditions.
I think this is still over the top. Holding had already made the decision to turn back. He didn't blindly plough on and then come to grief. He should have had an ice-axe or ski-stock with him but I've been up there without them too.
Feathertop on a late winter weekend is hardly isolated : people in both huts etc. I don't think many people with much walking experience would be too concerned about going alone.


Sabu

1-Sep-2009
8:37:18 PM

Oh I'm not against going solo, I'd do that. It's the lack of gear that has me jumping up and
down.

patto

1-Sep-2009
8:43:15 PM

On 1/09/2009 Sabu wrote:
>BTW this is not meant to be a personal attack or anything patto, there's
>been too much hate around here recently!
Thanks Sabu. I haven't taken it as such. :-)
I'm more than happy to have this disagreement with you and continue to argue without any ill feelings. :-D

On 1/09/2009 Sabu wrote:
>
>Perhaps you're right and i might change "irresponsible" to simply "stupid".
>My reasoning for "irresponsible" is because as a result of his lack of
>judgement, a lot of money and resources have just been
>spent. All of it I believe, could've been avoided simply by being better
>prepared to deal with those conditions.
>
>If you want to relate this to climbing you could say its likened to jumping
>on a 21 trad route with a half a set of nuts when your limit is around
>16 - stupid and likely to end badly.
I would suggest my example of Snake Dike is a closer fit. If you don't know the climb it is a grade 14 in Yosemite, starts around 2300m after a 4 hour walk in and has 25m run outs (mostly in grade 10-11 territory). Its a climb, and you accept the risks it presents. It certainly is more in your face than feathertop. Yet are climbers who attempt it stupid?

Coming back to your example of a 16 leader jumping on a 21 with half a set of nuts. I agree that sounds stupid and likely to end badly. Tim Holding's effort was different as it is VERY unlikely to end badly.

Many people without ice axes have travelled to the huts this past month. Many people have hiked around the ridges next to the peak. Some have ascended the summit without ice axes. None that I know about got into much trouble. (I did here of one concussion though.)

On 1/09/2009 kieranl wrote:
>I think this is still over the top. Holding had already made the decision
>to turn back. He didn't blindly plough on and then come to grief. He should
>have had an ice-axe or ski-stock with him but I've been up there without
>them too.
>Feathertop on a late winter weekend is hardly isolated : people in both
>huts etc. I don't think many people with much walking experience would
>be too concerned about going alone.
>
Exactly.


Sabu

1-Sep-2009
9:02:22 PM

On 1/09/2009 patto wrote:
>I would suggest my example of Snake Dike is a closer fit. If you don't
>know the climb it is a grade 14 in Yosemite, starts around 2300m after
>a 4 hour walk in and has 25m run outs (mostly in grade 10-11 territory).
> Its a climb, and you accept the risks it presents. It certainly is more
>in your face than feathertop. Yet are climbers who attempt it stupid?
No but you'd expect that they're adequately equipped to climb it.

>Coming back to your example of a 16 leader jumping on a 21 with half a
>set of nuts. I agree that sounds stupid and likely to end badly. Tim
>Holding's effort was different as it is VERY unlikely to end badly.
I would've said the exact opposite - the combination of trying to summit in bad weather
and without snow gear in icy conditions was asking for trouble! I've done it in a near
white out and was nervous enough, i'd never consider trying that without crampons or an
axe (or the less hardcore combo of snowshoes and poles!).

>Many people without ice axes have travelled to the huts this past month.
> Many people have hiked around the ridges next to the peak. Some have
>ascended the summit without ice axes. None that I know about got into
>much trouble. (I did here of one concussion though.)
Travelling to the huts is somewhat irrelevant as its easily done without much gear. Yes
the mountain is easily summited without axes but how many times has it been done
without any snow/ice gear in a blizzard? Not many i'd say!

patto

2-Sep-2009
1:09:08 AM

On 1/09/2009 Sabu wrote:
>Yes the mountain is easily summited without axes but how many times has it
>been done without any snow/ice gear in a blizzard? Not many i'd say!

Yes, attempting a summit in a blizzard without snow/ice gear does seem quite misguided. And as I've said numerous times. For a safe ascent of the summit in the conditions over the past month an ice axe and the ability to self arrest would be important.

However NOT having an ice axe, does not make you irresponsble or foolish. And there is no indication that Tim went for the summit. (Though there are other indications of Tim's inexperience such us not knowing what a snow peg was!)

Either way I think I have said all I have to say on the matter. I will continue to enjoy feathertop in the way that I feel fit to. :-)

dunno23

2-Sep-2009
1:51:08 AM

Tim holding has shares in Epirb companies.

--> there is no-way (unless he was high on something illicit) that a supposed experienced ex army dude that did survival training can't walk 4kms back to his car - even if he did veer off 100m and sprain an ankle. (which he didn't)

I would expect an army dude to be able to crawl on his belly back to safety (or to complete his mission) .... but he was find sitting on an out crop that led nowhere. Either the survival training at the Army isn't what it's all scratched up to be or Tim Holding really was just sitting there taking in the views tripping. (hell the carparks at some ski resorts to the cafes are further away than what he was from his car)

Something is definitely rotten in Denmark on this one.

I propose a conspiracy: (especially now that a "spy" plane is involved)

Tim and some of his cronies in the upper echelon of society staged this whole incident to "make us buy epirbs"
==see this
Call for EPIRBs for lone bushwalkers - Yahoo!7 News
http://news.yahoo.com.au/a/-/local/5903660/call-for-epirbs-for-lone-bushwalkers/

already they (tim and his cronnies) have proposed to fine people in state forests that are found without an epirb. So now when you go anywhere off a track you will have to first rent an epirb.

Imagine wanting to go on a simple picnic to let's say the yarra ranges, (full of state forests) ... as soon as you get out of the parking lot you will have to tote your Kannad or GME epirb. - otherwise you will be fined - ohh let's say $200 .. and the ranger will tell you to stay in your car, or go home.

Uh don't we live in a great world.

I can see the eprib rental profits skyrocketing in the next 6 months.... I am awaiting the new government policy. (I am also placing stock into Kannad)

Another possibility is that they(the governement) will require us to "register" before we leave. I can image having to have to go into some big corporate Like the new Big camping stores and having to have to go through a "licensee" to check your proposed itinerary, with an equipment checklist (you may even have to have your bags checked before you leave, bringing airport style scrutiny out into the public domian)

This whole Tim Holding hiking trip isn't going to end next week ---> it's going to be a long haul of new an interesting profitable government policy, to nanny and tax us.


GravityHound

2-Sep-2009
6:59:34 AM

Sounds like he was pretty well prepared.

"He told friends he survived on a diet of canned tuna, crackers and dehydrated food." Survived? Sounds like a camping feast.

"A ferny glade was the most attractive resting spot, so he climbed into his tent and spent Sunday night under the ferns."

Just a normal camping trip really. All he was missing was the goon bag.

news article

He chose not to take an axe and crampons, turned back, stuffed up and paid the price. Hopefully he learns from this. On the bright side, at least the taxpayers aren't coughig up for a S&R AND a state funeral....

Wendy

2-Sep-2009
7:21:19 AM

This sounds like the advertising campaign of the story to me:

"It is understood the Petzl brand torch that saved Mr Holding was bought at Paddy Pallin."

Very in depth and insightful reporting that greatly enhanced my understanding of the situation ...


ajfclark

2-Sep-2009
7:24:05 AM

On 2/09/2009 Wendy wrote:
>Very in depth and insightful reporting that greatly enhanced my understanding of the situation...

You now know he paid too much for his head torch. ;-)


cruze

2-Sep-2009
8:48:25 AM

On 2/09/2009 Wendy wrote:
>This sounds like the advertising campaign of the story to me:
>
>"It is understood the Petzl brand torch that saved Mr Holding was bought
>at Paddy Pallin."
>
>Very in depth and insightful reporting that greatly enhanced my understanding
>of the situation ...
I laughed when I read that as well - just in time for father's day! I can just imagine the queues at the bottom of bungalow spur starting to grow already in anticipation of this weekend's stampede...


Sabu

2-Sep-2009
9:51:25 AM

On 2/09/2009 patto wrote:
>However NOT having an ice axe, does not make you irresponsble or foolish.
> And there is no indication that Tim went for the summit. (Though there
>are other indications of Tim's inexperience such us not knowing what a
>snow peg was!)
The "map" in the herald sun indicates he didn't even make it over little Mt Feathertop....!
The other funny thing was his decision to decend & bushbash instead of try find the track again!

>Either way I think I have said all I have to say on the matter. I will
>continue to enjoy feathertop in the way that I feel fit to. :-)
Agreed!

climberer

2-Sep-2009
11:17:40 AM

... Don't forget that he also had a "thermal sleeping bag" (I think a police spokesperson said that).

Where can I get me one of those?!

2-Sep-2009
11:26:01 AM

Feathertop should be made safe. It needs to be ringbolted. The bolts will need to be a bit longer than normal so that stick out of the snow and they should definitely NOT be camouflaged, probably the standard flouro orange or pink colour would suffice. They would need to be placed close together in case of reduced visibility, maybe even closer than on a "sports" climb.

The MUMC hut is also the scene of one of better culinary triumphs. It involved no food but a couple of bottles of red wine. All the others were cooking steaks and when they found out I had some wine they said "Gee, some wine would go well with the steak", I replied; "Some steak would go well with the wine". All I had to do was pull out the corks and I had my meal cooked for me, except for the cheesecake, that was put out in the entrance to set.

widewetandslippery

2-Sep-2009
11:34:13 AM

On 2/09/2009 BA wrote:
>Feathertop should be made safe. It needs to be ringbolted. The bolts will
>need to be a bit longer than normal so that stick out of the snow and they
>should definitely NOT be camouflaged, probably the standard flouro
>orange or pink colour would suffice.

I want to climb your routes with the fluro and orange rings. They sound tops.


cruze

2-Sep-2009
11:58:37 AM

Don't you think that it would be better for sherpas to equip the summit ridges with fixed lines at the start of every season?

Bob Saki

2-Sep-2009
12:37:39 PM

Holding should pay for his rescue though. That's how I roll


nmonteith

2-Sep-2009
12:41:57 PM

Getting anyone to pay for their rescue starts a very ugly precedent (covered heavily in the the Bluies rescue topic a month or so ago). Why does he have to pay for one? Because he is a minister? rich? silly?. You'd need to benchmark these traits if you want to introduce a pay per rescue scenario.


evanbb

2-Sep-2009
12:42:39 PM

On 2/09/2009 Bob Saki wrote:
>Holding should pay for his rescue though. That's how I roll

Oh, it's a shakey precedent though Bob. Does suggest that poor people (eg most climbers) won't be rescued in future because they can't afford to pay for it.


Sabu

2-Sep-2009
12:52:49 PM

The obvious flaw with getting individuals to pay for their rescue is that in future they not bother to call it in for fear of the cost and in doing so reduce their chances of surviving.

There are 82 messages in this topic.