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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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Author
Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?

Sonic
13/08/2009
2:07:55 PM
On 13/08/2009 widewetandslippery wrote:
Retro bolting is a valid topic to question and there is a history of generally modest bolting at the crag.

Oh I agree there. As a sport climber I know just how touchy a subject retro-bolting can be. It just seems a very narrow minded discussion topic the way it has been put forward.
robertsonja
13/08/2009
2:08:13 PM
On 13/08/2009 Sonic wrote:
Does it mean everytime a bolt is placed that you don't think is necessary, it is wrongly placed?

No, it means that I have the right to voice my opinion on the bolt.

Sonic
13/08/2009
2:10:19 PM
On 13/08/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>On 13/08/2009 Sonic wrote:
>Does it mean everytime a bolt is placed that you don't think is necessary,
>it is wrongly placed?
>
>No, it means that I have the right to voice my opinion on the bolt.


Then please never visit Nowra!
robertsonja
13/08/2009
2:14:35 PM
On 13/08/2009 Sonic wrote:
>On 13/08/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>>On 13/08/2009 Sonic wrote:
>>Does it mean everytime a bolt is placed that you don't think is necessary,
>>it is wrongly placed?
>>
>>No, it means that I have the right to voice my opinion on the bolt.
>
>
>Then please never visit Nowra!

You've missed the point. Nowra is different to Arapiles which is different to Thailand.

Sonic
13/08/2009
2:17:23 PM
On 13/08/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>You've missed the point.

No, you just made my point for me. You are different to me, who is different to Simey. We all climb differently with different views. If you open your mind just a little, you will understand, oh one in darkness!
Paz
13/08/2009
2:30:21 PM
On 13/08/2009 Sonic wrote:
If you open your
>mind just a little, you will understand, oh one in darkness!

blind leads the blind...

The good Dr
Online Now
13/08/2009
2:46:30 PM
Definitions of opinion:

* a personal belief or judgment that is not founded on proof or certainty; "my opinion differs from yours"; "I am not of your persuasion"; "what are ...

* a message expressing a belief about something; the expression of a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof; "his opinions appeared frequently on the editorial page"
Dave J
13/08/2009
5:23:12 PM
On 13/08/2009 simey wrote:
>And Dave... for you to talk about aspiring to create climbs without fixed
>gear and then retro-bolt a naturally protected two-star route (Strolling
>RHV) so you could establish Ergonomics, well I would call that hypocritical.

No...Strolling RHV was a climb done with fixed gear placed on abseil thats differnet in my mind to a
route that goes entirely on natural gear...Anyway Ergonomics is the obvious (bolted) finish to Chris
Shephards (bolted) line to the right of strollings start I extended a line with 2 bolts and a piton adding 2
more bolts. Im sure if Mark had had the vision to finish up the middle of the wall when he did strolling
RHV he would have put bolts in it (and maybe even chipped a few holds) and you would be singing his
praises. I hadnt been going to mention the Ergonomics episode as being a good example of how
sometimes your personal agendas get in the way of your ability to reason....but since you brought it
up.

I certainly dont have a problem with bolts, most of my favourite climbs have some bolts in them. But I
still think that if a line will go on natural gear then it should (unless its at nowra or somewhere like
that). There are a few routes around with just one bolt that probably needent have been there (Grand
Oral Disseminator and Malice spring to mind but Im sure there are others) and likewise a few sport
routes that are entriely bolted but for one fiddly natural placement and that seems bit weird too.

Anyway I thought this was a dscussion about retrobolting natural, multi-pitch adventure routes at the
mount not extending an exsisting clip up.

trent williams
13/08/2009
5:34:41 PM
On 13/08/2009 Wendy wrote:
>On 13/08/2009 jkane wrote:
>
>>
>>With a normal cordallette set up both are generally true. With a sliding
>>X, its equalised but if one piece fails the whole thing extends.
>
>
>
>I wouldn't call it normal, nor reccomended, practice to belay off a sliding
>x.

You can have a sliding x within an anchor system, which is pretty standard. The majority of pieces will be equalized, and if a piece within the sliding-x fails, the anchor will extend.

Have you heard of the alpine equalizer? This is a 3-piece dynamically equalizing system which is extending. This would be a good bit of kit for Dribbles 3rd pitch belay... oh wait, forget about the bolts, just clip those.
Wendy
13/08/2009
5:48:12 PM
On 13/08/2009 trent williams wrote:

>
>You can have a sliding x within an anchor system, which is pretty standard.
>The majority of pieces will be equalized, and if a piece within the sliding-x
>fails, the anchor will extend.

I wouldn't call the sliding x that standard even within a larger system, and it's really not appropriate as a whole anchor system. I still don't like the SERENE acronym, I don't teach with it and I don't teach beginners about sliding xs either. Hence it leaves out a level of complication that isn't necessary at that stage of affairs.





jkane
13/08/2009
6:28:24 PM
I wasn't recommending the use of a sliding X in an anchor. I was just using it as an example of how extension can occur in an equalised system.

Back to the bolts. Maybe they are not 100% necessary but Simey's reasoning seems ok. I can't see the sense in removing them. I don't see these two bolts as being some sort of catalyst for any kind of bolting explosion at the Mount.

My opinion. Worth debating but not worth removing.
Tris
13/08/2009
9:28:49 PM

>I wouldn't call the sliding x that standard even within a larger system,
>and it's really not appropriate as a whole anchor system. I still don't
>like the SERENE acronym, I don't teach with it and I don't teach beginners
>about sliding xs either. Hence it leaves out a level of complication that
>isn't necessary at that stage of affairs.

Have you tried using the SRENE acronim, I hear it's better :)

mattjr
13/08/2009
9:34:51 PM
Slight hijack... but, does anyone know the history behind the communications tower? Guessing it was erected a wee way back.. 60's?
(I suppose the defacing of the region in the name of the greater good spurred this question)
What would the people's response be to a proposed second tower being mounted on Mt Arapiles?
kieranl
13/08/2009
9:56:20 PM
On 13/08/2009 mattjr wrote:
>Slight hijack... but, does anyone know the history behind the communications
>tower? Guessing it was erected a wee way back.. 60's?
>(I suppose the defacing of the region in the name of the greater good
>spurred this question)
>What would the people's response be to a proposed second tower being mounted
>on Mt Arapiles?
It was erected roughly in the sixties. For a more precise date, see Arapiles : A Million Mountains - available at all good bookstores or from the publisher (I should get some sort of payment from Noddy fro spruiking his book).
I think there are already two towers there.
simey
13/08/2009
10:12:25 PM
On 13/08/2009 Dave J wrote:
>On 13/08/2009 simey wrote:
>>And Dave... for you to talk about aspiring to create climbs without fixed
>>gear and then retro-bolt a naturally protected two-star route (Strolling
>>RHV) so you could establish Ergonomics, well I would call that hypocritical.
>
>No...Strolling RHV was a climb done with fixed gear placed on abseil thats differnet in my mind to a route that goes entirely on natural gear...Anyway Ergonomics is the obvious (bolted) finish to Chris Shephards (bolted) line to the right of strollings start I extended a line with 2 bolts and a piton adding 2 more bolts.

>Im sure if Mark had had the vision to finish up the middle of the wall when he did strolling RHV he would have put bolts in it (and maybe even chipped a few holds) and you would be singing his praises.

I actually think Mark's efforts at establishing Strolling and Strolling RHV were slightly flawed. However the original Strolling RHV (before Chris Shepherd added his bolted variant start) was one of the finest grade 24 wall routes at the Mount. It had just enough natural gear to be led ground-up without being a death route and was a prized lead for many climbers (check the photo of Louise Shepherd onsighting it on page 37 of the Arapiles Select guide).

>I hadnt been going to mention the Ergonomics episode as being a good example of how sometimes your personal agendas get in the way of your ability to reason....but since you brought it up.

I find it interesting that you reckon my personal agendas get in the way of my ability to reason despite the fact that you are fully aware that I had rap-inspected Ergonomics way back in the nineties and deliberately chose not to climb it because I didn't want to retro-bolt Strolling RHV. Meanwhile you go ahead and bolt Ergonomics irrespective of how it affected a neighbouring classic.

>Anyway I thought this was a discussion about retrobolting natural, multi-pitch adventure routes at the mount not extending an exsisting clip up.

This is a discussion about bolting and I think the bolts you placed for Ergonomics are far more controversial than my two belay bolts placed on a forgotten part of Tiger Wall.

By the way, I love the way you talk about the creation of Ergonomics as 'extending an existing clip-up' as opposed to 'retro-bolting a memorable run-out on an existing climb because you desperately wanted to do a new route'.

Tell you what Dave, I am more than happy to pull my two bolts out of the The Dribble if you pull your two bolts out of Ergonomics.


robertsonja
14/08/2009
12:34:09 AM
On 13/08/2009 simey wrote:
>On 13/08/2009 Dave J wrote:
>>On 13/08/2009 simey wrote:

>Tell you what Dave, I am more than happy to pull my two bolts out of the
>The Dribble if you pull your two bolts out of Ergonomics.
>

QUOTE OF THE DAY!
tastybigmac
14/08/2009
10:35:29 AM
this is all such bullshit
BA
14/08/2009
11:33:46 AM
On 13/08/2009 kieranl wrote:

>It was erected roughly in the sixties.

I thought it had been erected rather smoothly myself :-)

The tower was there when I started climbing in 1968 and you get a terrific view from the top of it (or so I'm told).

mattjr
14/08/2009
12:48:54 PM
on 14/08/09 tastybigmac wrote:

>this is all such bullshit

makes the grit seem so simple!
surfinclimb
14/08/2009
10:08:37 PM
On 13/08/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>No, it means that I have the right to voice my opinion on the bolt.

GOOD. Now that you have voiced your opinion, repetitively,we understand you dont like them and want them all removed for your own personal ethical satisfaction. What I find interesting is that you only comment about Simeys bolts, Not Daves or Neils or Mikl's or even Muki's shamefull retro bolting of Alis (joke). Just Simeys. So what is your gripe with Simey. Dont like guide books?, dont like new route developers?, people who contribute to the climbing community for 30 years? or perhaps he's knocked you back before one lonely night. Please tell us all, get it out in the open so Simey can apologise and we can go back to arguing about Cams etc.

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There are 288 messages in this topic.

 

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