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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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Author
Tiger Wall - Dribble Bolting?
dalai
12/08/2009
11:28:43 AM
Having climbed chipped/glued/sika routes at Arapiles and around the world that have been really good climbs, it would be hypocritical for me to condemn the act. Though I would prefer it didn’t continue at Arapiles and elsewhere, especially if on existing routes.

egosan
12/08/2009
11:33:34 AM
I would like to thank robertsonya for his determination to keep bolting issues on the front
page here at Chockstone. All the ad hominems flung in these threads do
become tiring, however the debate about bolting ethics continues. Without people
getting angry we certainly would find ourselves swirling around the lowest common denominator.

I understand simey's arguement. This is a grade 11 with a 50m pitch that the bumblies
likely climbing it could find themselves struggling to safely anchor at the top of it. I think
also we should thank simey for taking the time and effort to clean up this climb.

I would, however, like to split the horns of this dilemma with an alternative to bolt or no
bolt. It has been agreed that a competent well geared person should have no issues
setting an anchor at the belay in question. Would it not be appropriate to amend the
route description with a note to the gear required for that belay. Perhaps something like:

"3) 11 50m blah blah airy blah blah blah sustained blah blah Save some small gear for
setting your anchor at the top." or "Take extra gear for fiddly anchor."

There is a reason we put an "!" next to run out and serious routes as opposed to making
them "safe." If people are informed of the exposure of a route, they can make their own
decisions about whether and how to attempt it. There is no question that a novice leader
might be over their head at that belay. Would that novice leader be there if the route
description made it clear that belay would take some expertise and gear?

Cheers,
Sol

Fish Boy
12/08/2009
12:14:06 PM
^^^Stop being reasonable, this is the internet.

ajfclark
12/08/2009
12:28:36 PM
On 12/08/2009 Fish Boy wrote:
>^^^Stop being reasonable, this is the internet.

http://xkcd.com/386/
egosan
12/08/2009
12:32:46 PM
Obligatory xkcd quote aside, I will never be accused of being reasonable again by you,
Fishboy!

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gfdonc
12/08/2009
12:33:26 PM
On 12/08/2009 cruze wrote:
> I would hate to see the recent increase in bolted belays at Araps be the
>thin end of the wedge and spill over to retrobolt belays like P1/P2 of
>Brolga just because a case could be made (eg multiple pieces of the same
>size in a flaring horizontal with thin, thinly protected moves off the
>belay).

Good point. If I had to nominate any belays at Araps that needed a bolt, I'd put that one forward. Very dodgy considering the classic status of a route.
I suspect back in the days of hexes those two pitches were not intended to take falls.
jrc
12/08/2009
12:52:16 PM
Please don't bolt Brolga. It was safe enough with hexes 25 years ago. I did it again last year with cams and its just fine....if you want to clip a bolt go and do Hot Flap.

Sabu
12/08/2009
12:58:15 PM
Wow, pedobear on chockstone! i knew this thread would be a good one!

..::- Chris -::..
12/08/2009
1:02:25 PM
I think bolts are sexy.... you just need to think about them in the right way.... ; )





Debate over..... ; ) Wouldn't mind clipp'n into that... hehehe yes i was bored... : )

Eduardo Slabofvic
12/08/2009
1:03:32 PM
On 12/08/2009 egosan wrote:
>Pedobear loves fishboy!


How do I get to have this much spare time on my hands?
robertsonja
12/08/2009
1:07:45 PM
On 12/08/2009 ..::- Chris -::.. wrote:
>This thread is ridiculous.... If you don't like them don't clip them...

thats the most ridiculous statement in this thread "If you don't like them don't clip them"
-regardless of whether one clips the bolts or not, they still exist
-so if I grid bolt Muldoon, thats OK, you don't have to clip them
-if I graffiti on the rock, thats OK, you don't have to read it.

>I'm more than happy to take the word of an Arapiles guide book author and
>someone who's climbed the place from tip to toe for many many years, if
>he says they were needed they were needed....

you may be happy to take someones word, re-read the thread, you can build half a dozen seperate anchors on this ledge - hence no need for bolts.

>A few more deaths at Arapiles and then i guess we won't have climbing
>or we'll need permits or worse we loose the right... I'm not in favour
>of Grid bolting and I'm positive Simey isn't either.....however i am in
>favour of our sport being as safe as possible so people have a choice as
>to whether climb a route as a death route or enjoy the route in a safer
>style...

Unfortauntely there will be more deaths at Arapiles, but that is life and that is climbing.
define "safe as possible"? that is a ridiculous statement
people make their own decisions to climb and know the risks - I didn't clip the bolts and it wasn't unsafe.

..::- Chris -::..
12/08/2009
1:27:18 PM
On 12/08/2009 robertsonja wrote:
>thats the most ridiculous statement in this thread "If you don't like
>them don't clip them"
>-regardless of whether one clips the bolts or not, they still exist
>-so if I grid bolt Muldoon, thats OK, you don't have to clip them
>-if I graffiti on the rock, thats OK, you don't have to read it.

hehehe yeah Grid bolt muldoon....WTF How;d you get from a couple of bolts on a "semi" dodgy belay half way up a cliff to grid bolting muldoon ?

>Unfortauntely there will be more deaths at Arapiles, but that is life
>and that is climbing.
>define "safe as possible"? that is a ridiculous statement
>people make their own decisions to climb and know the risks - I didn't
>clip the bolts and it wasn't unsafe.

Safe as possible being a ridiculous statement.... hmmm remind me not to climb with you...

Did your second fully load your belay ? Did you take a big whipper just after heading off for the next pitch ? So how badly was you day ruined by these botls.... ?

Personally i think your getting waaaaay to hung up about this....

I'm moving on.... So should you...

Lets just build a bolt free bridge and get over it.... ; )

cruze
12/08/2009
1:40:48 PM
On 12/08/2009 jrc wrote:
>Please don't bolt Brolga. It was safe enough with hexes 25 years ago. I
>did it again last year with cams and its just fine....if you want to clip
>a bolt go and do Hot Flap.
The irony of the situation is that routes like hot flap, mantle, antigone (the latter two more than hot flap) all have bolts that were placed years ago and aren't at all necessary by either modern standards or past standards. Having climbed all of them and found satisfactory passive gear (including hexes) near the bolts I have often wondered what was going through the heads of those that placed the gear in the first place.

Regarding the belay on P1/P2 of Brolga, out of interest are there good hex placements in the ledge-level horizontal? I found it to be quite smooth and flared on the three times I have done the route. Nonetheless a few cams makes a satifsactory belay.
NMcKinnon
12/08/2009
1:58:26 PM
Another thread devoted to the Safety First Party. Thanks for keeping it safe. Protected. Secure. Makes me wish I was a beginner so I could feel so safe and loved.
Paz
12/08/2009
2:20:23 PM
I asked Arapiles the other day and he didn't seem to mind about the new bling, apparently piercings are in....

ajfclark
12/08/2009
2:23:33 PM
On 12/08/2009 Paz wrote:
>apparently piercings are in....

In his what? Don't leave us hanging...
BA
12/08/2009
4:22:42 PM
On 12/08/2009 cruze wrote:

> Having climbed all of them and found satisfactory passive gear (including
>hexes) near the bolts I have often wondered what was going through the
>heads of those that placed the gear in the first place.

Check the date of the FA and have a look at a history book and see when Hexes were invented. Then look at when symmetrical hexes were replaced with asymmetric hexes.

>Regarding the belay on P1/P2 of Brolga, out of interest are there good
>hex placements in the ledge-level horizontal? I found it to be quite smooth
>and flared on the three times I have done the route. Nonetheless a few
>cams makes a satifsactory belay.

I don't recall any problems with gear and when I did it back in the mid-eighties it would have been with rigid stem cams, hexes and stoppers (which should send some of you back to the history books).

muki
12/08/2009
6:44:26 PM
Hey Boby, count all the replys that agree strongly with you....or even just agree !
Then count all the replys who don't really give a stuff about your 80's Gritstone Ethics.
I for one find it comical that you puff yourself up about this! on a regular basis it seems.
Arapiles has had bolts placed on its climbs since the early beginings of climbing here.
On both mostly traditional climbs as well as sport climbs.
I agree with the placement of these particular bolts.
So do many others like myself who have climbed here at the mount for many years.
People who have been involved in the replacement of bad fixed gear and the instalation of new fixed gear on the climbs that we put up at the piles.
And as a member of the ARG cliff rescue I also agree with the bolts, it's bad rock up that end of tiger wall, and I would rather enjoy the climbing, than have to go and scrape up some beginners who did not have the experience to realise that the many traditional placements available at the belay that simey installed were mostly in shit rock.

As I have said before.......go and climb in shefield, it suits your style and ethical stance.
One Day Hero
12/08/2009
9:09:14 PM
Yeah Robert, I'm also prone to getting up people for the unneccessary retroing of araps, including the big bolts on Trojan and Procul.....however, I would hesitate to jump on this bandwagon.

As Chris has already pointed out, Simey is hardly out to bolt the world. I've generally found his retroing to be in response to situations which are likely to have acco's happen e.g. the pins on Watchtower Crack. Without the pins, I'd say a lot of the parties belaying there will end up with a pile of crap instead of a belay and sooner or later there'll be a bad stack. I haven't seen the route in question here, but am happy to take the word of the local guys this time.

Don't give up the campaign though. I'm with you on the bolt at the bottom of Surface to Air, what a stupid piece of crap on a non route.....just pop it out!

Sabu
12/08/2009
11:36:17 PM
On 12/08/2009 bomber pro wrote:
>I for one find it comical that you puff yourself up about this! on a
>regular basis it seems.

Does anyone else see the hypocrisy of this statement?!

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There are 288 messages in this topic.

 

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