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General Climbing Discussion

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Technique Improvement


GG

2-Mar-2004
4:29:06 PM

5' 11 185lb and definately Austrian....not my type really.

Most of the good climbers I see are sub 5' 10 twig boys......


GG

2-Mar-2004
4:39:46 PM

His name was Marrion...no thanks...


IdratherbeclimbingM9

2-Mar-2004
7:15:56 PM

Buy more gear. It makes up for lack of training/technique every time!

3-Mar-2004
10:04:11 AM

Gareth,

You hit it on the head with your first comment... more time on rock! While this may sound like an old climbing cliche, with some qualification, it's actually true. There's not much to be gained lying on the couch thinking about how good or otherwise your technique may be, the path to improvement in this area is ongoing reinforcement of the specific movements or techniques in climbing (Phew!), ie: time on rock!
Technique in climbing is something that can be viewed broadly and encompasses aspects of movement, flexibility, efficiency, gear placing skills, route finding and many other skills besides. But given that climbing is principally a movement based activity, basic improvements in this area should lead to improved technique.
Time on rock, days climbing, hours spent bouldering, sessions in the gym all contribute to our "experience" of climbing. At a more basic level we learn how to move on rock - climb, in other words. This experience and learning forms motor patterns which grow and expand as greater experience is gained. For want of a better analogy the motor patterns are files for all manner of skills and tasks stored in the brain. As we gain experience over a number of years these files expand and become more numerous. Hence, a climber with 10 years experience should have better technique (in many areas) than a climber with 1 year experience due to greater learning or motor pattern development having taken place.
By the way, those familiar with Performance RC will recognise a motor pattern as being inter-changeable with the term "engram".
So how does this impact a change in climbing technique? Experiencing more, doing more and replicating climbing more will enable greater numbers of motor patterns to develop and become more expansive. From this we become more familiar or automated in our climbing abilities. Thus allowing us to concentrate our energies to either the physical demands or perhaps the route finding / sequence demands. This partly explains why its so much harder to onsight something than it is to red-point a climb we have been working over a number of occasions. With onsighting we rely on our experience of past climbs, (pull out the motor pattern files), to get through unfamiliar territiory, verses the red-point where constant replication of specific moves automates and rationalises the moves and the climb until it becomes easier. Also notice how much better we climb at our home crags than at new and or unfamiliar areas or on unfamiliar rock types.
Climbing regularly on different types of rock, at different angles, in different styles with different charactersitics helps to expand our climbing horizons but also assists at a more basic level to enhance motor pattern development. By expanding your repertoire of climbing a wider base is created on which you can further enhance other climbing abilities ie: consolidate a particular grade or push further up the grade scale. With this the cycle repeats itself... however it does take time. Much of the literature in skill aquisition and motor learning comes up with a magic figure of 500 hours. This represents the time taken to make a change in technique from a learning stage to full automation... so for want of a better phrase... "It won't happen overnight, but it will happen"
So the take home message in all of this... climb regularly, climb often, seek out and learn from all those experiences that climbing has to offer and with time you will become a better climber.

Chris Yeomans
Sports Physiologist
NSW Institute of Sport


GG

3-Mar-2004
10:19:49 AM

Nice response! Which leads to the subject of modelling climbing technique....I don't want to spend the next 10 years practicing bad technique...are there any top 6 foot plus 90 ish kg climbers in Aus?

climbingjac

3-Mar-2004
10:39:37 AM

Hi Gareth,

You might consider "speeding things up" with regards to learning technique, by attending a climbing technique course. Preferably where the instructor is someone whose climbing you are familiar with and admire. This way you are more likely to absorb more info.

It might be an idea to get in touch with the climbing co-ordinator (Richard Dale) at Vic Ranges climbing gym and enquire if there's any courses in the pipeline...

Jac


GG

3-Mar-2004
10:43:03 AM

Thanks Jac,

I did an indoor technique course with Dalai many moons ago. Is there anyone who does outdoor technique courses?


neats

3-Mar-2004
10:43:45 AM

Try the VCC

dalai

3-Mar-2004
10:54:24 AM

On 3/03/2004 Gareth wrote:
>...are there any top 6 foot plus 90 ish kg climbers in Aus?

Can't answer that.

>I did an indoor technique course with Dalai many moons ago

I haven't worked in the industry for nearly 2 1/2 years! But if I taught you, you must have stellar technique... Martin (if in doubt front step and pull) Lama

But to get idea's about movements and trying to replicate... Watch climbers about your height and with good technique at the gym on routes which you have climbed. It may only be their warm up climb which usually means they should flow up it. Try to replicate their sequence and see how it feels. Though just because they do it one way doesn't mean it's the best way for you. Experiment.

Like Chris said. Unfortunately it all comes down to practice, practice, practice. Also focussing on using good technique even when you are tired. As every time you do a movement, it is stored (filed). Therefore it is important that the dominant technique engrams are of good rather than bad technique.

hanh

3-Mar-2004
11:03:50 AM

It might be an idea to get in touch with the climbing co-ordinator (Richard Dale) at Vic Ranges climbing gym and enquire if there's any courses in the pipeline...

Well...
cause i work there now i don't want to be a walking advertisment, but the Vic ranges does offer a couple of climbing courses aimed to improve your technique. Richard is offering 1) a fast improvements course and 2) private coaching.
for fear of being stuck inbetween two sandwich boards....just ask at the gym for a flyer or be at the gym this thursday in between 10 to 5 and talk to richard himself.

hanh


GG

3-Mar-2004
11:10:58 AM

Private coaching? Is Richard the coach?

deadpoint

3-Mar-2004
11:13:10 AM

Graeme Hill is 6+ feet tall and would be close to 90kg


shmalec

3-Mar-2004
12:45:06 PM

not only does climbing lots on real rock get your body in tune and working the moves right....it also sets your head straight. You can play on plastic all you like and still fumble your way around and back out of easy moves on the rock due to low confidence.
Confidence and physical conditioning are obviously very closely linked, but you must also be used to your climbing environment, exposure, placing gear etc which only comes on the rock.

3-Mar-2004
1:28:44 PM

Gareth,

As far as modelling technique is concerned, firstly get your hands on a bunch of climbing videos and criticallly analyse what it is that makes these particular climbers so competent. Also have in the back of your mind some of your own areas of weakness (or strength), and try to incorporate, perhaps at a more simplistic level, these elements of good technique into your own climbing while minimising bad techniques. This is perhaps best done on moderate boulder problems close to the ground where you are stress free and able to concentrate more on the movement or flow of a sequence.
Secondly, another thing is to watch good climbers "live" at the crag. See how they prepare themselves and approach a climb. I personally have some vivid early memories of watching HB and his amazing mastery of a rack of wires or watching Stefan Glowacz virtually float up Have a Good Flight Direct at Araps. Things like this will stay with you for a long time.
From a different perspective though, attempting to copy or mimic what others do may be unrealistic or somehow detrimental in some cases. We all have different characteristics and physiological make ups... so if you're not a super powerful or fast twitch in make up, it may be somewhat unrealistic to spend too much time analysing Klem Loskot videos!
Personally you could also ask yourself a series of the following questions. How do I climb when I'm climbing well? What are the charactersitics of good climbing? - flow, smoothness, efficiency, continued momentum, relaxed posture / breathing, a level of quietness? What else? Can I improve my footwork? Where are my shoes wearing out? (perhaps points to some sloppy footwork if the rands are trashed and the sole is peeling). Am I able to find efficient resting positions while climbing? Am I putting too much effort into getting through tough sequences? Are there better ways of getting through a particular climb or problem? and the list goes on...etc.
Address these and come up with some of your own and it all should start to come together... in time.


Spanky

5-Mar-2004
10:18:28 AM

An early point in the discussion was that yoga helped. To elaborate on this, it seems to me that a lot of climbing and not falling off, particularly when it comes to overhangs and inclines, and sloping holds, comes down to body tension, which is helped a lot through increasing core body strength. Thus yoga is particularly good, as well as pilates, anything on a swiss ball, walking around with your stomach sucked in (sounds odd but really helps the lower abs)... Yoga is also really good for strengthening ankles which prevents injury and teaches a lot about how to use your body efficiently and not injure it, for example preventing knee strain and elbow strain through hyperextension.

Has anyone reviewed their own technique by watching video of themselves climbing? I would be interested to read about what you learned that way.


nmonteith

5-Mar-2004
10:46:11 AM

A friend of mine, Gareth Llewiilin, has a theory about yelling when doing crux moves. He reckons when you yell you tense your muscles - mostly your stomach - and this gives a solid muscle base for keeping your body tensioned and on the rock. It also sounds awesome having someone yelling their way through a crux! I guess it is a bit like a martial arts yell when you punch...


anthonyk

5-Mar-2004
12:16:23 PM

i totally agree with the yelling, my best days have definitely been when i get vocal about everything, even if its swearing the whole way up a dirty crack.. (ah trad climbing..) and i swear adding a grunt gives you strength when you're about to fall off, something about committment.

another thing i find very helpful is to pick a pretty hard problem and do it as slowly as possible. this obviously takes out the dynamic side (so won't work on everything) but really helps with efficiency. you have to keep relaxed & it makes you use your legs more, and you can feel the moves a lot better.

both of these i borrowed from martial arts too


Romfrantic

5-Mar-2004
1:05:44 PM

On 5/03/2004 Spanky wrote:
>An early point in the discussion was that yoga helped. To elaborate on
>this, it seems to me that a lot of climbing and not falling off, particularly
>when it comes to overhangs and inclines, and sloping holds, comes down
>to body tension, which is helped a lot through increasing core body strength.
>Thus yoga is particularly good...

Yep, I found that yoga helped me to "discover" muscles on the back of my shoulders and my back and notice their significant strength when "squeezed" at the right moment to pull a delicate climbing move, specially overhangs as already mentioned....great for overall balance and "elegance" too.

5-Mar-2004
1:23:37 PM

Would have to agree with the recent comments regarding Yoga, Pilates, Swiss Ball type work as an adjunct to improving technique in climbing. All these activities focus on the control / optimisation of posture and stability through the "core" (Gluts, Abs and Trunk regions). Given that climbing interfaces with its medium (Rock) at the extreme ends of the body, a stable connection between what feet and hands are doing is vital.
These activites also have the added advantage of improving strength and our connection with the rock without increasing muscle mass, (adaptation is principally gained through neural control), thus maintaining or improving strength / power to weight.

5-Mar-2004
1:29:47 PM

Core Strength and Body Tension seems to be the current focus of many Climbers training routines.If I relate that to established sports its seems sensible to adopt training routines from Gymnastics.Gymnasts display extreme BT and CS.
For those into training for the sake of training here's an impressive display.
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl?rm=mode3&articleid=137
Now that's a nice party trick for you to work on.
Any one with any excerises that they would like to share from this particular domain.

There are 41 messages in this topic.