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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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Author
THE AUSTRALIAN RETRO/RE-BOLTING OPEN FORUM

alrob
8/10/2004
8:06:04 PM
i found the post funny, as it was from way out of leftfield! why would he post here looking for some video of a gazelle????

IdratherbeclimbingM9
8/10/2004
8:12:52 PM
On 8/10/2004 alrob wrote:
>i found the post funny, as it was from way out of leftfield! why would
>he post here looking for some video of a gazelle????

A5iswhereitsat said on 08/04/04 (on this thread);
>H-T said;
>>'A5---said the gazelle running in front of the lions jaws !!! Over&Out, Gentle-Dude'
>Sent ya an email Hex. You will appreciate the attachment.
>>A5---e-mail ? , THAT e-mail(address) IS a troll !!! (comprehendy?)--- ' e-mail ' every- thing >>HERE so I can read it ! The parliment is open to all.

>Yeah, my mailer returned to sender, so I figured you sandbagged me.
>The attachment was a video clip of a gazelle running before some lions resting under a >tree. It took 'its eye off the ball' and knocked itself rotten by colliding with the tree. >Presumably the lions feasted easily that day ... Thought you'd appreciate the humour / >stupidity? Got nothing to do with climbing so I won't post it to parliament.

cherub78 is a politician? ... nee climber??; .... possibly Hex Trolls altered ego!...
Who else searches archives for obscure minor detail?
Would google 'pick up' on a few words in a reply on an obscure thread, on a site normally passed over by the majority of the population?

>LMAO ? --- Lurking Makes Anyone "Ommmmmmmmm" ....
Like it! Smoke-n-mirrors indeed!


mousey
18/04/2007
2:26:18 PM
On 8/04/2004 Damietta wrote:
>I think that later ascentionists, if they believe the route is dangerous
>for others, can, in the interests of safety, quite validly add bolts to
>already established routes. The classic example is "no beans for bonzo"
>at Booromba in the ACT. Never climbed until Simon Carter added six bolts
>- now it is a classic three star moderately run oute classic, whereas before
>it was a death route. We can all still apprecaiet the skill and ability
>that went into the first ascent, an dmor epower to the first ascentionist
>- but climbing's about climbing, not dyingg

i definately see your point of view and its a very valid one. but if you want to climb something safely, there are thousands of excellent, safe climbs around for you to choose from.
theres so many grey areas, so many influencing factors, but in general (if the boldness of the route is not just completely contrived- ala bathooking bolt holes kinda thing) then leave it as a challenge. if you cant step up to the mic then dont adjust the scales to suit your own selfish comfort zone.

sticky
18/04/2007
3:21:46 PM
Yeah, point taken - but let's take Booroomba as an example - how many well bolted granite slab areas are there in Australia to go to, to learn to climb there?

No-one wants to go near them because if they fall and they're lucky they'll take a ten metre cheesegrater, and if they're unlucky, they'll take a grounder or a thirty metre factor two onto a carrot bolt. Whoopee!

Look at Girra - same bolting ethic as Booromba - beautiful rock, but there's about six people who have the skills and gumption to climb even the moderate graded slab routes there cos you're practically soloing (and no, I'm not talking about the cracks or the well bolted steeper stuff at Turtle Rock area obviously). And let's leave aside the old Qld ethic that if you don't know the right people they won't even tell you where the good climbs are.

I'm not suggesting retrobolting per se, but I am a little wary of the whole "pony up cowboy, if you ain't got the mustard, go somewhere else" attitude prevalent, because there aren't many friendly bolted slab areas around where climbers can get the necessary experience to climb the serious stuff. Even somewhere 'tame' like Tenneriffe often has five or so metres between the bolts - how is a beginner climber able to learn the technique to get them to Girra if they're facing a ten metre cheese grater while fiddling with a carrot with a bolt head too big to fit RP or PFH hangers, at one of the tamest slab areas around? Or look at the Youies - often the first bolts are a good way off the ground - but after the fires that is often the crux of the route, and the rock quality is um, interesting.

Compare to, say, Squamish, where there are plenty of solidly bolted routes for beginners to get good friction slab technique on before they jump on the hard and scary stuff.

Just my five cents.

cruze
18/04/2007
3:46:21 PM
I think that there are many areas in the south-east of Australia where one can safely practice slab technique at their limit. The difference is that they will not be leading. Think of the possibilities for top-roping at the Hump at Buffalo, the fantastic longer slab routes at Tarana, the whole of the You Yangs, Black Hill and EVEN certain areas at Booroomba. I guess the thing about No Beans was that it is perfectly top-ropable, and I can see the argument that bold routes can still be accessible to everyone, but I digress. The importance nowadays is on the lead, and some might say that friction Granite climbing is all about sound technique and a very cool head and loses much of its appeal on top rope.

Perhaps people should be happy in those single pitch areas where there aren't too many bolts to either A) take the plunge and their push limits or B) perhaps practise slab technique on top rope (or second) before dropping back to a grade you are more confident to lead boldly at.

Another coin weighed in...
LGJ
18/04/2007
6:45:02 PM
Usually I browse right past these topics, mainly because it really is such a grey area as you said Mousey, and it seems like debates keep on going round in circles. I can't even make my own mind up on most things bolting, something I want to start doing a little bit of in the not too distant future.

One side of my coin: I've been climbing (living?) up at Armidale for nearly a year now, ie lots of granite. There's a great slab (Innocence, 30m 18) down Gara Gorge that I've been up a few times now - I love it! Definately one of my 'favourite climbs' but to dissect why I like it, one of the reasons (and there are others, eg the fact that it's sustained at the grade the whole way up, no real 'ledges') is that the bolts are adequately spaced that you don't let you mind or your feet wander at all the whole way up. Basically, I think it improves the mental aspect of the climb such that when you top out, you feel so good because the climb was REWARDING. You can take what you want out of that, but I guess I'm saying the boldness of routes isn't just a hoorah to the FA and forever after a saftey issue, it can mean the difference between a nice route and a route that makes you feel a plethora of emotions. (note that compared to a lot of granite slabs out there Innocence might actually be considered quite reasonbably bolted - for me I'd consider it a bit run out, but safe...)

Other side of my 2c. I finally got around to meeting Paul Bayne recently, one of the old school climbers who put up a huge percentage of the stuff around here. I had a lot to talk to him about, but one of the things I did broach was that I had been up a few climbs at Gara and around the other crags and had thoughts about replacing some anchors, or possibly more than that (ie possibly rebolting or retro). He just laughed and said something about how dodgy so many of those bolts probably are considering how they put a lot of them in/up (ie hand drilling on lead, etc) and said he'd never want his name to anything that kills someone. Again, take what you want from that but I guess one thing I'd personally do if/when I was ever to re/retro a route would be contact the FA or at least someone in the same 'crew' to get an opinion.

mousey
18/04/2007
7:30:32 PM
>ou feel so good because the climb was REWARDING
absolutely!
once you start putting bolts in, its a sport climb, right. so i figure if you put steel in you have a resposibility to make it safe (spaced and bold is fine, but still safe) otherwise the danger factor in completely contrived (ESPECIALLY if its been rap bolted.)
if its trad however, then the whole idea is that you're dealing with whatever the cliff dishes up- so dangerous isnt a problem as far as im concerned.

cruze
18/04/2007
9:00:56 PM
One thing I thought that I would add about Tarana was that many of the bolts there are absolute pox now. Like Six Days on the Toad and Fuzzy Navel (and the bolts on those ones are better than most). Those two routes are absolutely stellar. 3 star granite slabbing. In time, and owing largely to the fact that the cliffs are situated in a Nature Reserve where any retrobolting has been banned (a very sensitive area for development) rather than a National Park, the bolts will become even more worthless and the routes will revert to their natural state. I don't consider that a shame, they are perfectly top-ropable. Anyone that has been to Tarana will have witnessed first hand what happens when people bolt granite gratuitously. Perhaps it's just me, but vast 'oceans' of featureless Granite don't hide fixed gear particularly well, and perhaps the allure of a Granite slab route is not so much the 'line' (of bolts) as the 'anti-line' (with fewer bolts).

Making a call half-way between, and a long way from either of, two bolts as to go left or right through a sequence you have spotted knowing full well that that moment could define whether you send clean or leave flesh on the rock, has to be one of the most appealing aspects of friction climbing. I just wish I was better at it.
spicelab
18/04/2007
10:12:58 PM
On 18/04/2007 cruze wrote:
The importance nowadays is on the lead


What about the increasing trend in sport-climbing in which climbers begin with one, two and even three runners pre-clipped now, yet still insisting on calling it a lead ascent?

In effect, modern, difficult sportclimbing seems to be evolving (devolving?) back towards top-roping. I don't have a problem with that. Although what I don't understand is if sportclimbers have no time for the issue of boldness, it seems a little bizarre how precious some remain about such 'lead' ascents.

If the emphasis is merely on physical limits and putting a sequence together in one go, what is wrong with toproping?



cruze
19/04/2007
7:16:26 AM
On 18/04/2007 spicelab wrote:

>If the emphasis is merely on physical limits and putting a sequence together
>in one go, what is wrong with toproping?
>
That is my point.
TLockwood
19/04/2007
11:24:20 AM
On 18/04/2007 spicelab wrote:

>What about the increasing trend in sport-climbing in which climbers begin
>with one, two and even three runners pre-clipped now, yet still insisting
>on calling it a lead ascent?

One reason for this, I atleast have noticed is that the first and maybe second bolts are already clipped, is because they are a fair way above the deck, with commiting moves below the first bolt, therefore in the interests of safety i've clipped atleast the first bolt, recently i did this on both Weaveworld and Chain of Fools at the Gallery, both sharing a bouldery start. I'm not saying this was a pure lead having the first bolt clipped, but i wasn't about to compromise my safety by going bold. I do realise there is a possible placement for a 3/4 cam before the first bolt, but i made my choice. On other sport climbs such as Spasm In A Chasm at Araps, i placed the wire at the start then climbed to the first bolt without stick clipping it. I personally clip the first or second bolt based on a safety judgement.

I havnt climbed extensively on sport, but this is a recurring trend that i have noticed, not with anyone's climbs in particular, but just in general. Whether its ignorance on safetys behalf or wanting to create a bold lead, i dont know.

anyway, thats just my opinion.

Tim

gordoste
19/04/2007
11:49:12 AM
I don't care what style people climb in, as long as they're honest and don't claim what they haven't done.

shiltz
19/04/2007
12:19:43 PM
Tim, I think there is a general desire to place only as many bolts as are really required (cost, effort and aesthetics). Clipping the first bolt is so common in sport climbing that new routers assume it will be done and bolt accordingly. I don't hesitate to stick clip the first bolt if I'm worried about my ankles and don't feel that it invalidates my lead. I haven't ever clipped the second or third bolt or used a stick mid-climb but it isn't uncommon.

I also think that top-roping is a perfectly valid way of climbing. It always seems a bit of a waste to bang in bolts for a 15m route that is easily accessed from above without erosion concerns. Warragul Rocks is a great example. We top roped some routes down the right hand end of the upper tier a long time back now. I was really surprised to see in the latest guide that they had been bolted and lead.
Bob Saki
19/04/2007
12:42:54 PM
less is more with bolting IMO

In terms of leading personally:

it eats away at me if I have stick clipped, pre placed gear, had a slip, gone off route for an easier hold. In my mind this severely detracts from the a) the experience and b) having the satisfaction of completeing a trully valid sport or trad lead in my view

I don't lead hard stuff and may never do so. But I think in most people heart of hearts anything that makes the climb more safe, convenient etc than the way the route is found (an possibly FA'd) detracts from your personal feeling of satisfaction.

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There are 335 messages in this topic.

 

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