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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

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Author
THE AUSTRALIAN RETRO/RE-BOLTING OPEN FORUM

hex-TROLL
10/04/2004
12:18:31 PM
A5---e-mail ? , THAT e-mail(address) IS a troll !!! (comprehendy?)--- ' e-mail ' every- thing HERE so I can read it ! The parliment is open to all.

Luv ,HEX (choc burp !)

p.s. : Mickey---'... To-Sense ' things and then formulate, and articulate, a reasonable view , is always worth wrestling with ,dude --- 2c might be worth more than you initially think...

tmarsh
11/04/2004
8:25:00 PM
What I was alluding to was the use of multiple mats to reduce the danger of highball boulder
problems and dangerous routes. The only way you could make A5 safer (ie multiple bodyweight
placements, poor belays and serious fall consequences) would be to strap on a chute and sail
away in the event that the 9 copperheads and RURPs rip.

Commitment. I'm shit at it. Give me the bouncy castle or I won't climb.

tim
Estey
12/04/2004
9:56:58 AM
In reply to Damiens post on the 9/4/04.

O.K the jibe about the intermediate 29 was meaningless. What one climber finds impossible another finds easy. While 29 is no where near cutting edge the majority of climbers would consider it hard. And by the way there are heaps of French who bumble around on 5+, even if they do it with more style.

But sorry dude the rest of your post was a load of bollocks. Yes climbing has changed over time. And I agree it has changed for the better. And this is because it is now much more diverse. We now have plastic, bouldering, sport, trad-sport, trad etc. None of these genres is necessarily superior to any other. Many climbers would get more satisfaction from leading a bold 17 in the Bungles than redpointing a 24 at Nowra. In my view "safening" climbs does not equal progress. Your allusion to racism, the world is flat view, etc suggests you believe that the new routing ethics of previous generations were ignorant. Just because their philosophies differ from your own doesn't mean they were wrong. There is a place for both. Are you also saying that the reality TV popstars currently gracing the top of the music charts are superior to Dylan, Bowie, Led Zep etc?. Is Harry Potter more valuable than Carlos Casteneda?

You also call climbers who put up the old death routes egotistical. Sure ego probably had a part to play. However the clean climbing ethic of the day would have also had a lot to do with it. So would the lack of bolting technology at the time. I believe the motivation of any would-be retrobolter is even more crucial to the debate. Do they want to open up a route so that it can safely be enjoyed by more climbers? Or is it because there own ego has been threatened by there inability to do a route in the original style?

Finally the act of 'safening' routes by adding bolts could also be more dangerous in the overall scheme of things. Bold routes are necessary for climbers to develop mental control and judgement. Even death routes can help us develop as climbers ... mainly by teaching us that it is better to keep off some climbs. Climbers are better of learning these lessons on their local crags before they wander off to less forgiving arenas such as high end grit or Patagonia.

hex-TROLL
12/04/2004
6:56:47 PM
Lawn-ceston climbers , sluggin' it out , in 2000 , in regards to some local ' raping&retro-bolting ' , have a very transfer-able case to fit Bonzo , perhaps... :

' ... what is the preferred state of affairs here ? Would it have been better for the climb to remain un-bolted and climbed only by those prepared to solo and risk serious injury should they miss a move ? Or is it better now that many climbers can climb this wonderful route ? So I repeat , IT'S NOT THE CLIMB THAT NEEDS THE BOLTS , IT'S THE CLIMBER , but without climbers climbing it , does the climb continue to exist or serve any purpose other than to act as a trophy for the first ascentionist ? At what point must the style of the first ascent give way to common-sense and consensus of the majority of local climbers ? '

Hopefully '...the majority of local climbers...' is constituted by a broard-sprectrum of climbing-styles-representation --- rather than just bolt-dependent bozos.

' Waddy ' Coles Bay roots, High-Anxiety(21) & Incipience(22), should definitely (or 'defiantly' as Neil would say) remain bolt-free --- Incipience is now part of the National-climbing-psych and DOES get quite a few repeat ascents ; High-Anxiety probably awaits a 2nd ascent--- take ya ' sticky ' boots for this one--- the crux is the last move before the belay, 40+ anxious metres out from the previous belay .Very 'character-building' for some ;' just another day at the crags' for others ( '...what one climber finds impossible , another climber finds easy[mentally?]...) ...

(Adding to the '...bollocks ') Luv, HEX.

Wonderdog
13/04/2004
2:01:15 AM
On 9/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>
>It brings into question what the motives are/were of first ascentionists,
>is it a statement of testicle size or a gift to others. Surely establishing
>a death route is exceedingly esoteric, ego inflating and selfish.
>
>By 'safening' existing routes, it is not showing disrespect to the first
>ascentionist, it is progress. People seem to assume that 'tradition' is
>better, things were better then than they are now - if we believed that
>we would be covering up our women like Muslims, not voting, racists, believing
>the world was flat etc etc like the past. Climbing is a different 'sport'
>nowadays than it was in 1981, as is shown by the number of all types of
>people, women particularly, being in the sport. I know that I would hate
>to establish a route that someone died trying to climb......

I take it from your post that other cultures values and customs are wrong? Hope you didn't take a holiday for that Easter celebration thing... son of God coming back from the dead... bit silly really. Each to their own I say, and that includes climbing. What do you care, your profile says you only climb in the gym... hell, have as many bolts as you like in there, won't worry me a bit!

Damietta
13/04/2004
9:05:33 AM
Perhaps Bowie and Dylan weren't the best examples to use for the analogy for preserving death routes vs well judged retro-bolting - NBFB being th gold standard for the latter. I don't think that Bowie and Dylan were actually chart busters in their time, more a cult-like following decades later - to use your comparison with the current 'chart toppers'.I think in every era there are the good and the bad, sure we have 'pop stars' now, but you had the monkees and the mammas and pappas in your time. Your example is highly gamed to suit your argument.

I think a better example is the French - look how their sport moved forward as soon as they removed the shackles, the artificial constraints and self-imposed limits of the 'traditional' ethics. Compare that with the back-biting, whinging state of play in the US and UK, where everybody is a couple of nothces below, and the only way they catch up is to head to France and live there, joining in the pate.

And the ethics imposed are artificial, hypocritical and a double standard. Anyone who calls it 'clean climbing' - with any sort of reference to preserving the rock is pulling themselves. Climbers crawl all over the climbing area, throw their rubbish, trample the environment - put up banners on the organ pipes to assert themselves (a la MUMC at Araps on the weekend), chalk the place up - and then say that you shouldn't put a bolt in the rock....

Estey are you saying that you don't use chalk? That is what clean climbing is/was about. You can't chop and change and take this and that, take the best of the current technologies/ethics and wrap yourself in the cloak of traditional righteousness. It's too late for that, the crag is already covered in chalk and bolts. If that is sucha drama for you skip the bolts like Messner and Bonatti have claimed to doing in the Alps.

Another example I would like to proffer is the Middle East, where the ultra-religious espose their strict ethics on the general populous, with force I might add, and then head over the Bahrain on the weekend to take advantage of prostitutes and booze that they have outlawed in their own country.

Tel
13/04/2004
9:17:31 AM
IMO I don't think anybody goes out of their way to establish a death route. If a route becomes regarded as a "death route" then all that says is, that others are not up to the ability level of the FA. From my limited knowledge there have been routes that have lay lain dormant for many years before others have repeated the ascent.
As for ego inflating and selfish...hardly...just think back to when you were little and mommy read the 'little train that could', some of these routes are the same 'I think I can, becomes, I know I can'. If someone has worked and grunted there way up a route where a mistake means death, I don't think at the finish they start thinking of whether or not anyone else can do the route. As their objective was whether they could do it.
I think it is more egostistical and selfish to add bolts to a route just so that you can do it, because all you are after is bragging rights.

As it has been pointed out to me on another thread, the style, the attitude we take, and our methods, say not only who we are as climbers but where we are morally as people. If you take the time to look, it is not that hard to correlate, morals and ethics in climbing to morals and ethics in daily lives.
So what are we saying by adding a bolt to an existing route, are we looking for the soft option?, do we do that in other aspects of our lives? If it is too hard do we complain that it is not fair, or do we work at it harder? Do other people have all the luck, or do they strive to achieve. How can we expect respect from our peers, friends, family by always looking for the easy way out? How does the the first timers excitement and joy at toproping a 16 differ from someone who leads a 6 for the first time?
The steps to achieving our goals begin by placing one foot in front of the other, and whether you choose to believe or no, your actions on a crag say a lot about who you are as a person.
tel





IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2004
11:31:26 AM
On 13/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>I think a better example is the French - look how their sport moved forward
>as soon as they removed the shackles, the artificial constraints and self-imposed
>limits of the 'traditional' ethics.
Are you fair dinkum?
You really believe their sport moved forward??
Yeah, I can't wait to go to France to see all the shiny bolts, and queue for a climb, only to be queue-hopped by some egotistical self serving frenchie who can't understand 'respect' but assumes they will get it after they top-out ahead of the rest with their 'bugger you attitude' - catch my dislodged rocks if you don't like it!
Maybe I can exercise my mind while climbing, by wondering why it is that 2m bolt grids are all the rage, when surely a 1m grid would be safer ...
Tel summed it up well
> the attitude we take, and our methods, say not only who we are as climbers but where we are morally as people.

Damien
>And the ethics imposed are artificial, hypocritical and a double standard.
>Anyone who calls it 'clean climbing' - with any sort of reference to preserving
>the rock (snip) chalk the place up - and then say that you shouldn't put a bolt in the rock....(snip) use chalk? That is what clean climbing is/was about.
Hardly.
I thought clean climbing was the minimal use of whatever it takes to climb. With accent on minimal rock/environment damage.
Onsight ropeless, shoeless, chalkless, nude! bold solo is the ultimate clean ascent!!
The term 'clean' really got its following when pitons phased out for nut protection. Chalk had not been envisaged at the time...
Less (technology/dependence) is more (adventure/experience/fullfilling).

Damien, you will find hypocrites everywhere. Particularly if you widen the debate to include cultural and religeous issues. The french (poor buggers) have lost a lot. They might have some brilliant rock technicians, but they lost world credibility (and my respect stereotypically speaking) when they continued to test atom bombs at Muaroa Atol, and then sank the Rainbow Warrior (with loss of life) because some people in this part of the world disagreed with their attitude.

I respect some of their mountaineers for their adventurous endeavours, and Jaque Cousteau helped their cause no-end, ... but give me a break; 'moved forward', indeed.

>Your example is highly gamed to suit your argument.
Pot calling the kettle black here.

I think you need to research your music statements also. Either that or get Hex to help you with some facts!


dalai
13/04/2004
11:55:05 AM
On 13/04/2004 A5iswhereitsat wrote:
>You really believe their sport moved forward??
>Yeah, I can't wait to go to France to see all the shiny bolts, and queue
>for a climb, only to be queue-hopped by some egotistical self serving frenchie
>who can't understand 'respect' but assumes they will get it after they
>top-out ahead of the rest with their 'bugger you attitude' - catch my dislodged
>rocks if you don't like it!
>Maybe I can exercise my mind while climbing, by wondering why it is that
>2m bolt grids are all the rage, when surely a 1m grid would be safer ...

A5, curious to your experiences in France? I don't recall any of these events occuring whilst I have climbed there. Everyone was friendly, only queues encountered were on a long weekend holiday (same as nearly anywhere), and most climbs are now minimally bolted...


Damietta
13/04/2004
11:55:56 AM
If the argument is "horses for courses" - I think that the British grading system much more objectively honours a bold lead as much as a difficult lead, and provides vital information to the would be later ascentionist, and better conveys the achievement of the first ascentionist. In that system, someone coming out of the gym would be much better informed about what to climb - with plenty of respect for (and fear of) an E6 - they would be likely to steer clear of it, rather than thinking they will easily nail a 19 that actually turns out to be a death route.

If people value boldness so much they couldn't really argue otherwise

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2004
12:46:05 PM
On 13/04/2004 dalai wrote:
>A5, curious to your experiences in France?
It was tongue in cheek.
I have never been there. Perhaps from what I have heard and read I am badly misinformed, and on the basis of that I also have no wish to go there.

>and most climbs are now minimally bolted...
Good to hear. ... (am open to a change of mind yet?).

The point I was making (generalisation) of bolts / retrobolts equating with an overall 'advance' in the sport is a long bow to draw.
>look how their sport moved forward as soon as they removed the shackles, the >artificial constraints and self-imposed limits of the 'traditional' ethics.
The french do not have a mortgage on advancement of climbing due to the advent of sport / gym climbing and bolts generally. Damiens statement equally applies here in our own backyards.
The result is a new generation of better rock technicians, but most do not get out like the Huber Brothers (for example) and 'apply' their new-found technicians skills in the adventure arena.
Don't throw the baby with the bathwater when you divest yourselves of the self imposed traditional ethics.

Hex-Troll
>At what point must the style of the first ascent give way to common-sense and >consensus of the majority of local climbers ? '
>Hopefully '...the majority of local climbers...' is constituted by a broard-sprectrum of >climbing-styles-representation --- rather than just bolt-dependent bozos.
My plea is; Don't let adventure climbing die due to overbolting.

Damien
>If people value boldness so much they couldn't really argue otherwise
(than for a grading system which reflects it).
I climb for myself. Many of the 'new routes' I have done are unrecorded. Many of the climbs I have repeated I do not know the name or grade of. I need neither a guidebook nor a grading system to do this.
I choose to continue doing this in my own quiet way.
I am not bolt dependant.

I am a hypocrite though, because I also make extensive use of guidebooks and grading systems, and will often happily clip a bolt if I find one on an established route I choose to climb.
To get this in a personal perspective though, the amount I use quickdraws and brackets (as compared to nuts and runners), is probably about equal to the amount I boulder. It would be lucky to be 10% of my overall climbing experience! I do not seek out bolted climbs, and in fact will walk past them to seek an aesthetic line. If that same line happens to have bolts, ... then that is when I clip them if I feel I need to, though I much prefer to place nuts if there is an alternative ....

The whole concept of climbing (generally) is 'artificial'. It is indeed all a game, and as such the 'rules' are contrived and self imposed. It is from this standpoint that I take exception to having others impose bolts on me!



hex-TROLL
13/04/2004
1:11:59 PM
On 13/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>If the argument is "horses for courses" - I think that the British grading
>system much more objectively honours a bold lead as much as a difficult
>lead, and provides vital information to the would be later ascentionist,
>and better conveys the achievement of the first ascentionist. In that system,
>someone coming out of the gym would be much better informed about what
>to climb - with plenty of respect for (and fear of) an E6 - they would
>be likely to steer clear of it, rather than thinking they will easily nail
>a 19 that actually turns out to be a death route.
>
>If people value boldness so much they couldn't really argue otherwise

SPOT-ON , DUDE !!!

In this day'n'age of globalisation/standardisation , now is the ideal time for Ewbank to stop strummin' his guitar long enuf, to encourage the introduction/addition of the 'E-system' , to the present robust , tho multi-dimensional-limited , 1>34+, ' australian grading system '.

Win,win,win : Good for the crags, good for rampaging aussie egos,good for the climbing-'culture' (respect , awe , clear-cut-cautions etc,etc,etc)

Luv,HEX

Richard
13/04/2004
1:16:49 PM
On 13/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
>On 13/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>>If the argument is "horses for courses" - I think that the British grading
>>system much more objectively honours a bold lead as much as a difficult
>>lead, and provides vital information to the would be later ascentionist,

If bold ascents are really valued, do you really need to be told how bold the route is before you do it ...?? Isn't that reducing the boldness?

A5 (I think it was him) spoke about the purest form of climbing .. you know, no shoes, no chalk bag, no rope etc. But there is on thing he missed ..no guide book.!!

Now, that's getting bolder....

hex-TROLL
13/04/2004
1:26:59 PM
Dicko--- Ewbank wanted to 'do-away-with' 20h/9/$k45 -BLAH-E9 -type of 'grades'---'his'
20 fits all 20's is no-longer good-enuf---amount of info ? : 20 E5 or 20 E6 (and nothing more--- bar the usual guide-beta) , will leave plenty for the imagination !

Luv, HEX (tackling the mother-of -all topics !)

Phil S
13/04/2004
1:44:21 PM
We don't need to extend our grading system!
We've got words: route descriptions and heresay.
We've got eyes: we can stand beneith a route and recognise that there might not be any gear between there and there, or that there is gear but there's also a blank section a long way above it.
We've got emotions: if the thought of being up there is horrific, perhaps another day would be better.

The old cliche is worth remembering: We don't conquor rock climbs - we simply meet their demands, or not. It is not our right to feel safe on a climb, or to have the experience that we feel was somehow due to us. When we leave the ground we leave our confort zone, that's the whole point. It's supposed to be confronting. The uncertainty is the best part.

The point I'm not really making is that Australian climbing is perfect just the way it is. It will continue to evolve with us. But we must protect it from lowest common denominators.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2004
1:52:26 PM
On 13/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
> Luv, HEX (tackling the mother-of -all topics !)
... which has morphed from retrobolting to the vagaries of grading systems.

> 20 E5 or 20 E6 (and nothing more--- bar the usual guide-beta) , will leave plenty for the imagination !

Why not simply add X or R to the grade instead of 'E-whatever'.
X = die if you fall
R = scary / distinct possibility hurt yourself if you fall.
The imagination is left to ponder whether this is from choss, nil pro, poor pro, big kahunas etc
This concept has precedent aplenty already, though I am still stumped as to why the gym-graduates can't simply accept the fact that its a flawed (any) system, and you can hurt yourself out there if you choose to climb, (no matter the grade).

This is a privilege, NOT a right, besides whatever will the sandbaggers do if we legislate them into a prescription?

I reckon the 'perfect route name' is Mike Laws original ascent at Frog Buttress called; 'Borderline 29'
Its probably only 19 and is my favourite route there.
Although I do not know the anecdote that led to it being named as such, it still typefies where I am coming from. Aesthetic line, a degree of boldness, humour/larrikanism.
If you climb it and do not know your 'craft' then you could still stuff-up and die from your own stupidity although the protection is bomber ...

hex-TROLL
13/04/2004
2:02:17 PM
' evolution ' , comrade ?--- bring on the incredibly-complicated-to-understand (NOT) , E6 revolution !

'We,ve got eyes...' ? :

' Tell those bozos with ring-bolts for eyes
That their gym-views , don't make me laugh
They only make me feel like OMMMMMin'
In an un-guarded moment... '

Luv,HEX



hex-TROLL
13/04/2004
2:24:33 PM
A5--- it is the LIMITATIONS of the aus grading system that is a ' generating ' so much retro-bolting in this country !

Like Steve Monks once said : " In Australia you pretty much place bolts where-ever they are ' needed ' ... "

If XI becomes 18 E3 (for rough example ) , those experiencing a bit of ' irrational exuberance ' , at the start of a fine , sunny Araps day , might well indeed choose to ' go and climb one of the other 2000+ routes on offer ' ; and then come back for the ' challenge ' once they get their brain around the situation ...

Kickin' out of a 10 second cauldron-barrel & headin' for the summit...

Luv HEX.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
13/04/2004
2:40:05 PM
On 13/04/2004 kent wrote:
>hey A5, no one dies from there own stupidity mate.
? The Coroner comes up with the 'facts' surrounding the death of the deceased.
He/She would probably conclude it was stupid to be there in the 1st place?
Why do we have 'Darwinian Awards'??

>I really thought the trad vs sport argument was long gone.
It has as far as I am concerned, but the next generations will no doubt re-invent the wheel.
Personally I accept Sport Climbing (and Bouldering) as forms of Climbing. I just lament the indiscriminate use of bolts, and the lowering of mental standards that often accompanies their use.
It would be irony indeed if the 'bouldering mindset' required the sanitisation of sport climbs in similar vein to the way 'sport' treated 'trad' in early days, ... (in times yet to come that is).

>insert provocative comment ala
>>A5 means diddly squat to me and 99.999969 % of the population..
>should you care...hell no !
Care? Only inasmuch as I am still relatively free to pursue my preferred niche. One things for sure; I am not likely to trip over many of the 'other niche' clients or antagonise them in my pursuit! and I suspect they more than I, would prefer it remain that way!!

Hex-Troll
>A5--- it is the LIMITATIONS of the aus grading system that is a ' generating ' so much retro-bolting in this country !
Rubbish. (polite euphemism for thats crap ...)
The Ewbank Grading System may have its limitations, but it is the 'safe consumerism mindset' that is pushing for retro-bolting. The practioners of same don't really care if its grade 6 or 42 (insert numbers appropriate to you), they just want to 'feel safe' doing it.
I did not see the post re retroing XI suggesting that after its retrobolted that it be regraded to suit!

hex-TROLL
13/04/2004
3:14:29 PM
On 13/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
>A5--- it is the LIMITATIONS of the aus grading system that is a ' generating
>' so much retro-bolting in this country !
>
> Like Steve Monks once said : " In Australia you pretty much place bolts
>where-ever they are ' needed ' ... "
>
> If XI becomes 18 E3 (for rough example ) , those experiencing a bit of
>' irrational exuberance ' , at the start of a fine , sunny Araps day ,
>might well indeed choose to ' go and climb one of the other 2000+ routes
>on offer ' ; and then come back for the ' challenge ' once they get their
>brain around the situation ...
>
> Kickin' out of a 10 second cauldron-barrel & headin' for the summit...
>
> Luv HEX.

YEP ! --- looks pretty good from the summit too !

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMM OMMMMMMMMMMM OMMMMMMMMMMMMM

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