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General Climbing Discussion

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3:54:15 PM
Ethical quandary re retro bolting.

Mike Law put up XI (18) at Arapiles in the Golden Age of development. Ten years later he repeated the route and found the bottom half life threatening so he added two carrot bolts. Controversy ensued - climbers were stunned - nobody had faced such an ethics issue since Joe Simpson cut the rope. Keiran Logran (sp?), always the one to consult about such curly issues, chopped the bolts. He reasoned that the route had to be restored to the style in which the original ascensionist left it ,,, originally. Tackle this question but don't disappear up your own spouts. Be warned, this story may be apocryphal - I'm not sure - I'm just passing it on.

4:32:59 PM
B.D.EYES--- You speak with fork-ed tongue , bro !


Luv, HEX ( ...Controversy ensued...? --- Hmmmm , that's a new concept ! )

5:45:52 PM
i must say the start of xi and its lack of big gear is one of its best points... though perhaps the guide should allert you to this fact...??

7:42:01 PM
' And now we meet in an abandoned studio
We hear the feed-back and it seems so long ago...'

On 3/2/04, H-T wrote : ' Trying not to vex ; Luv, Hex '

With suspect RP placements in moving flakes , the following may or may not apply to XI :

On 5/2/04, Kent wrote : ' Removing dogging bolts and leaving ankle breaking falls is just not cricket ! '

Hmmmm--- ' let me sleep ooooon it ,baby,baby ! '

Time to head on up ; I hope that Wonderdog's #0 RP holds ; yep, looks OK ; here we go...

Ahhhhhhh, lovely day on the summit ! Hang on a ,minute--- whose that hiding behind the prayer-flags ?!--- ooooiiiiii !!!!! --- Dinkum ! Piggy ! Rodney Rude !--- Bugga roff !!!

Ahhhhhhh---that's better ! OMMMMMMMMM---OMMMMMMMM---OMMMMMMMMMM

Luv, HEX ( sparing a thought for Bryden Allen ; Simon Parsons ; Phillip Stranger ; Rick White , to mention just a few, from the-bigger-picture-view )

10:10:29 AM
At the total risk (some of you know what risk is, don't you?? ...yes, it's a board (bored) game!) of repeating the obvious... nobody stands below you with a pitchfork and jabs your well honed butt to make you do XI or any other routes. If the fear and intimidation is too much for you, do something else, or top rope it. I think part of the reason that XI is classic is because of the intense nature of the start. Scares me a bit whenever I do that route. Would I object if Mikl retrobolted his 'own' route? Nah, I figure that he has the right. Anyone else? Can just see that it would get (rightfully IMO) chopped!

3:19:03 PM
Joe , 16/3/4 : ' It's cool to scare yourself every now and again as long as you've got the head to keep it together '

gfdonc , 17/3/4 : ' Perhaps @ issue here is that gym babies expect the natural environment to be as controlled and orderly as indoors ? (he says , running and ducking for cover) '

Onsight , 18/3/4 : ' This has raised some interesting issues...and the climbing community has the right to discuss them.'

[SUPABABE] climbingjac , 19/3/4 : ' We've got some really good thought-processes going on people---good to see '

A5 , 19/3/4 : " Not everything needs to be sanitised or safe. As Mikl said : ' It's a priveledge to participate in a sport that you can die doing ' "


'...Ben and I decided to take on some 18's. We hit "XI" first up , the 30m ,grade 18 on the left of Fang Buttress , behind the Plaque block. XI is a super climb ,well worth braving the first few moves , that can only be protected with RPs. Really , it doesn't get difficult until you're committed to the crack above. Evidence of bolts that have been chopped exists, which is fair enough in my opinion---it's a trad line. When the crack starts to disappear , traverse right on good holds (small alien will go in a horizontal crack here ) , then storm the pumpy finish on jugs...[it's] a hoot of a climb ! '

11:37:50 AM
Re: Retrobolting XI.

I warned against the dangers of disappearing up one's own spout if tackling this issue. Wonderdog, with respect, it seems to me that you are already half way in. How can you support Mikl's right to retrobolt his own route while, in the same breath, siding with those who would take it upon themselves to chop it? Seems to me anybody who leads XI with those wigglies that adventure climbers use for protection has a death wish, an adrenaline addiction or no dependants. I note your icon.

12:59:25 PM
On 1/04/2004 DBD wrote:
>Seems to me anybody who leads XI with those wigglies that adventure
>climbers use for protection has a death wish, an adrenaline addiction or
>no dependants.

I've lead XI, oh maybe four times over a number of years and can't recall feeling suicidal on it (or indeed any climb). My memory of the route is that it has enough trad gear for me personally. I can't speak for others, but I know I could easily downclimb the little slabby start if I was to venture up it again and decide differently. Again, from memory, it doesn't get serious (for me) until after you've committed to the crack above, and by that stage hopefully made use of it for protection.

If I recall it rightly, the crux (for me) is about halfway up the crack, with a 2nd crux being hanging about trying to get a couple of aliens into the traversy bit (well after the crack), just before you tag the massive final stage jugs. The slab start is probably half the grade (for me). People capable of leading trad 18 should be able to downclimb the start if they step on and don't like the look of the gear. Net result: I don't think it needs a bolt. However, this is just my opinion, and I am in no way declaring it "safe" for the masses. Rock breaks, gear pulls, it happens. Make your own judgements on the day. You can always go climb one of the other 2000+ routes instead.

That said, and noting Will's comments about moving flakes, maybe the rock is worse than it used to be?

8:39:28 AM

Thanks David, your eloquent comments are appreciated... many people have accused me of being halfway up somewhere, but why should I care if you don't understand my opinion? My stance has been consistant. First ascentionist has the right to modify (or give permission to modify) a climb... ie Mikl can retrobolt his own route, but nobody else should. Bolts that outrage are usually removed by someone! Not me mind, I couldn't be bothered chopping anything, but I understand how people feel when they do.

>Seems to me anybody who leads XI with those wigglies that adventure
>climbers use for protection has a death wish, an adrenaline addiction or
>no dependants. I note your icon.

Right... adrenaline addiction? Maybe I did once, but I seem to have weaned myself. Death wish? Well, so long as ASIO don't find out who I wish dead, I should stay free to keep climbing. Hopefully my daughter Alexandra (now 4 1/2) will turn out to be a good climber who can winch me through the hard bits that I can't haul through anymore. Thank you for noting my icon...

5:56:29 PM
" I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHAT ALL THE ' FUSS ' IS ABOUT !!??!! , snigger, snigger ! " (Malcolm McClaren)

Luv,HEX (walking a CAMEL thru the eye of a needle...)

5:13:55 PM
Moving Flakes ?

' Geological features maybe threatened by... population pressure... The need for the protection of the more important geological features was recognised early and a number of areas, containing significant geological features, were reserved as public land. These included Hanging Rock (1870) , Werribee Gorge (1908) , Mount Arapiles (1912)... '

Chipping ? , Chopping ? , Bolting ? , Glue-ing ... ? --- look after '... our geological heritage...', dudes .

Fortunately , Araps is , generally , very robust quartzose-meta-sandstone --- things could be very different :

' The terrestrial Baxter Sandstone is... described as consisting of commonly cross-bedded , coarse , moderately to poorly sorted , with variable amounts of gravel ,finer sand and clay.'

Hmmmmm--- anyone care to join Mick Fowler for some ' dry-tooling ' on the Mornington Peninsula ?...

Luv , HEX (with special guests : Douglas&Ferguson , ' Geology of Victoria ').
12:00:03 AM
Regarding XI, I chopped the bolts. They were both chopped on the same day so the different rust characteristics must be due to the metal used.
I've discussed the reasons for removing the bolts previously in this forum so I am not going to continue the argument here.
Kieran Loughran (it'd be really nice if people could spell my name after 30+ years)
P.S. there is a moving flake low on XI and it would be futile to place runners in it. There is a good RP placement above the flake at about the level of the highest chopped bolt (I can't remember the size)

11:34:21 PM
Latest ROCK mag ?--- ' Uncle ' Chris & ' Senior Grass-hopper ' Kyle , are now members of the Gentle-Dudes Club.

Luv, HEX
12:22:46 AM
Hex your just dribbling shit now.

11:19:31 AM
Stinkingoat ?--- what a perfect ' carcass ' for the cauldron !

Read between the text and you won't be so vexed.

Luv, HEX

1:41:51 PM
On 5/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
>Latest ROCK mag ?--- ' Uncle ' Chris & ' Senior Grass-hopper ' Kyle , are
>now members of the Gentle-Dudes Club.
>Read between the text and you won't be so vexed.
Hey, I resemble that remark! (Uncle, Senior and latest) ... though I would hope age alone is not the only criteria for becoming a Gentle-Dude ... which must be the case, as I note Hex admitted (young) nmonteith to it as well as BA, myself, and the above-mentioned ...

3:06:20 PM
Nevermind Toby Benham--- Ben Cossey has '... lived up to all expectations by proving his skill is above any physical limitation and has now transcended through the mental arena, [of the 7th dimension ], into the spiritual battle field of absolute mind control and self-denial.'

When Ben snakes his way thru his '34' , 'self-denial' ?, and announces / denounces his 'motives' for MA , then ' The HEX ' will gladly have brandy&cigars waiting, cauldon-side , for Ben too . But at the moment he is '... just an anonymous fart dissipating in the breeze.' !

Thanks for the quote Kieran (which you directed at one Eddy Mofardin )-- you should have saved/savoured that one for H-T !!! , NOT !

Luv , HEX

p.s. ( another) thought for the day : Yo-dell up the Valley (21?) wasn't just the first ? bolted climb @ Frog Butt--- it represented the whole RETRO-BOLTING OF FROG'--- probably just another case of 'who cares ',eh...

p.p.s. For more Ben ' 34 ' , check out BA's Hubblebubbles in thread ' 34 '
8:48:43 PM
which quote are you referring to? I'll happily re-direct it at you if you wish.

12:09:09 PM
Thank you for being so polite ; the cauldron is calm ; have a nice day .

Clipping that # 0 RP


12:17:51 PM
On 6/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
> p.s. ( another) thought for the day : Yo-dell up the Valley (21?) wasn't
>just the first ? bolted climb @ Frog Butt--- it represented the whole RETRO-BOLTING
> OF FROG'--- probably just another case of 'who cares ',eh...
This is part of my education which is lacking, as I have no details of the incident you refer to.
From your comment I gather it sparked controversy. Care to elaborate further Hex?

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There are 335 messages in this topic.


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