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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 10 of 17. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 200 | 201 to 220 | 221 to 240 | 241 to 260 | 261 to 280 | 281 to 300 | 301 to 320 | 321 to 335
Author
THE AUSTRALIAN RETRO/RE-BOLTING OPEN FORUM

hex-TROLL
15/04/2004
1:33:36 PM
'...only in others minds...'

Being part of the hoolahoop generation , you should be able to remember your 1960s/1970s sociology : ' Man is in society & society is in man '

Think , grass-hopper , THINK

Your re-entry to the cauldron is premature , dude---your inner child is experiencing some post-traumatic-stress-disorder-irrational-exuberance---takanuthachilpill

Luv , HEX .

Most guide-books DO have ' pictures ' , photos , sketches, diagrams ; eh...

Come down off your coffee O/D(objective danger ?)--- The E-revolution will roll over the top of your Kieranesque ' integrity ' if you keep jumping into the flames, under the cauldron , neo-grass-hopper...




hex-TROLL
15/04/2004
1:51:13 PM
Jim--- Me thinks that perhaps you mean to say : Phaedra+ bolts= ADVENTURE

Similar scenario to role-doll Lynn Hill , on the top (face) pitch of The Nose, eh...

Luv, HEX
James
15/04/2004
2:17:36 PM
not necessarily, the point is Phaedra is an adventure climb but still has bolts. Bolted climbs don't have to be sport climbs (this point gets lost at times I think). Its possible, but not frequent enough, that bolted non-sport climbs are established.

>Similar scenario to role-doll Lynn Hill , on the top (face) pitch of The Nose, eh...

not quite - you're just grasping at straws now. It was just the boring old case of the rusty scary bolts being replaced & then subsequently being chopped. All played out a few years ago in "mr bold is the new black"'s soapbox magazine.

hex-TROLL
15/04/2004
2:29:26 PM
Jim---'... the point is...',that NO-ONE is saying that bolts do NOT = adventure.

Ya know wha' I ? (you ?) mean...

" ...' bolting-on' E-grades gets my vote... "--- One hopes a few more level-headed people will have a good think about this too...

Luv (you always , Jim) , HEX

hex-TROLL
15/04/2004
2:47:30 PM
Calling B&T !!! :

' The birds fly North again, across a winter sky,
And one by one they disappear
My life will be forever altered,
Now you're not here! '

Luv, HEX.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
15/04/2004
3:03:25 PM
On 15/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
> ' The birds fly North again, across a winter sky,
> And one by one they disappear
> My life will be forever altered,
> Now you're not here! '
A Haiku (Japanese) poem from H-T? You are indeed a true hex ...
(multifaceted/dimensional)

+++++++++++++++

kieranl 6/4/04
>The thing is that we both understand the game that's being played. What do we do about the people who don't grasp the nuances? I think we have to cater for them.

Donut King 15/4/04
>sure all these symbols are applied subjectively, but the information is there for the >taking and should certianly cater for the percentage of the populus that dont grasp the nuances.
James 15/4/04
>If the poor unfortunate sport climbers can't get their heads around twin ropes & natural >pro, how will they ever make sense of a grading system with more that 2 digits??!!

What? We now have to draw them pictures?

***************************

>your inner child is experiencing some post-traumatic-stress-disorder-irrational-exuberance---takanuthachilpill
Could be the heady mix of thin air at the top combined with aroma of rekindled cauldron (or new ingredients) wafting up from below ...

>Man is in society (climb) & society (climb) is in man
This is the essence ... one cannot 'be' without the other.
..........................................
...glass-hopping still

On 15/04/2004 hex-TROLL wrote:
> Most guide-books DO have ' pictures ' , photos , sketches, diagrams ; eh...
But not small graphics to indicate 'pumpy' etc.
> 'E-revolution'? 'Kieranesque ' integrity', (There is a dude called Keiran Who thinks I am a prick)'??
This glass-hoppers...wings arn't singed. Perhaps Tel of the sketchy-blackfoot tribe?

Gonna meditate outside the firelight for a while ... on a benightment to ponder simul-ing at length. Don't worry I have my bivvy rations... (coffee beans & chocolate bar ...suck/chew both together).

Damietta
15/04/2004
3:49:37 PM
Hex's point, quite validly made I think, is that if sport/trad/bouldering are to co-exist in equilibrium, each must have it's own property rights, so to speak, correctly defined. The discussion on grading systems is the natural and logical progression of the retrobolting/bolting trad vs sport debate, in that they are inextriably linked as I set out in the example below. I don't think that the sport vs trad debate is dead, as was mentioned in earlier post - the resolution has not been met because all parties are not shown their due respect in an objective way.

I suggest that a grade 23 E5 would not be retro-bolted, because it's boldness defines it's category, you would be changing an E5 to an E2. However, a grade 23 death route (ie we call it a deathroute instead of an E5) is likely to be retrobolted because there is nothing in name to separate it from any other 23, and it retains it's original grade despite being 'softened'.

I am not sure how to interpret something like Scott Cosgrove and Kurt Smith's attempts to re-equip and free-climb the Muir Wall (an aid climb graded for seriousness, length and difficulty but my best attempt is that it was some sort of blurring cross over between aid climbing and free climbing.

I think James sums it up in that it makes perfect sense to have a grading system that distinguishes sprt routes from trad routes objectively - so that each has it's own objective respect and identity. This in now way detracts from the experience, because that is all in the climbing itself, not being bamboozled by the guidebook and grade description - particularly if, as someone mentioned earlier, that guidebook descriptions are becoming increasingly scant (do guidebook editors think they are redundant? I don't know).


IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
15/04/2004
4:19:41 PM
You make some good (& democratic) points Damien.
On 15/04/2004 Damien wrote:
>I suggest that a grade 23 E5 would not be retro-bolted, because it's boldness
>defines it's category, you would be changing an E5 to an E2. However, a
>grade 23 death route (ie we call it a deathroute instead of an E5) is likely
>to be retrobolted because there is nothing in name to separate it from
>any other 23, and it retains it's original grade despite being 'softened'.

Would it not be more likely that the existing climbs become RETROGRADED rather than retrobolted if your concept was to gain popularity?
I suspect the old debate would still rage on, if a 1st ascentionist considered their climb put up in yesteryear was bold and should not be retrobolted to fit a new grading system.

>I am not sure how to interpret something like Scott Cosgrove and Kurt
>Smith's attempts to re-equip and free-climb the Muir Wall (an aid climb
>graded for seriousness, length and difficulty but my best attempt is that
>it was some sort of blurring cross over between aid climbing and free climbing.
Why not just list the climb with multiple (accepted) grades.
As an example this should be done in the new VCC Guide to Buffalo for the Classic Aid climbs eg Ozymandias Gd M4 Aid / C6 (clean or hammerless aid) / 28 Free
This would abbreviate to M4/C6/28

Still messy in my opinion, but it would be useful to many.

The seriousness of the climb E-'whatever' is still a relative thing.
That which is one persons 'serious' is anothers 'tame'.

(snip to the future) What happens when some wuss decides that location should be graded?
'Ozy' being hard to access gets rated E-serious, while Mt York 'Auntie Jack' gets E-tame??

>I think James sums it up in that it makes perfect sense to have a grading
>system that distinguishes sprt routes from trad routes objectively - so
>that each has it's own objective respect and identity.
If a climb has only one grade (say 28) but is described as 'Sport' then the would-be-ascentionist becomes informed as to the existance of bolts?

>This in now way detracts from the experience, because that is all in the climbing itself,
True.


Tel
15/04/2004
6:06:06 PM
On 15/04/2004 A5iswhereitsat wrote:
>
>Could be the heady mix of thin air at the top combined with aroma of rekindled
>cauldron (or new ingredients) wafting up from below ...
>
Forget the top I am still jumping on the coals way way down below.......

I am having a hard time following this, as my understanding that a grade is based on the hard moves or crux of the climb, so then what is the difference between a crux on a sport route or a crux on a trad route.
As far as retrobolting has this topic been somewhat resolved in that unless express permission of the FA is given then retrobolting is not on, isn't that what the ethics are all about. At least that is what I thought.
Again with regard to 'death routes' leave them be and come back to them when you are able enough, they should remain as sources of inspiration and sheer wonder at how it was done. I say this presuming that most of these 'death routes' are graded quite high and if you are up to or near that level I don't quite see how you wouldn't know what you are up against. Also are we that starved for climbs that we have to retrobolt 'death routes', to soften them.
Maybe informing those that do the guidebooks and ask for better beta is easier than changing grading systems.
tel ... burnt soles an' all


hex-TROLL
15/04/2004
10:07:27 PM
More ' Gigla-hype ' : WHO WILL IT BE ? !

PATRICK TURNER --- COME ON DOWN !!!

Closely followed by 'The HO' , Patrick Turner is the most impressive of the McDonalds Generation :

Recent , significant , sends :2nd free asc', HB's Kalbarri Gold 26 ; 2nd,aus,lead, free ,Whistling Kite 31 ; 2nd ascent, Mother of God 30 (off-width !) ; 2nd ascent ,Great Shark Hunt 30, (missed a great opp' there,Climbingjac ! ), Gilga ?...


There is a dude called Keiran ,
Who thinks I am a prick
Read between the text, my friend ,
And things will start to click !

Luv, HEX.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
15/04/2004
10:19:39 PM
On 15/04/2004 Tel of the blackfoot tribe wrote:
>my understanding that a grade is based on the hard moves or crux of the climb, so then >what is the difference between a crux on a sport route or a crux on a trad route.
Check gentledude BA's contributions re Ewbank system.
Grading accounts for exposure, protection, sustained difficulty etc as well as physical difficulty of the crux.
Re your Q. The crux on a trad route might not be the physically hard bit to climb, but could well be the mental committment required to commit to the easy but 'runout' moves.
Sport crux on the other hand is generally (and simply) the physical difficulty with the mental component being able to read/remember the sequence.

>I say this presuming that most of these 'death routes' are graded quite high and if you are up to or near that level I don't quite see how you wouldn't know what you are up against.
Not necessarily so. The example earlier in the thread was XI which is grade 19 (I think? as I have never laid eyes on it). I am sure there are 'death-routes of lesser grades out there.

>Also are we that starved for climbs that we have to retrobolt 'death routes', to soften them.
Excellent point. I hope it never happens.
If some-one 'dies' on an easy/any route, they (like me) are responsible for their actions.
Its lamentable (tragic accidents) but even if it (all climbing) was grid-bolted; human nature is such that someone will still find a way to kark on the cliffs.

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
15/04/2004
10:34:22 PM
Your (post edit 'everyones') thread is up to 200 replies now Hex.
The new ingredients are working like a charm ...

hex-TROLL
16/04/2004
10:10:40 AM
EVERYONE is welcome to thread their way thru a cauldron barrel (just make sure you've got lotsa wax on ya board !) --- & may I say, not in a shy way ,--- this is EVERYONES thread...

OMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM-inous...

Luv,HEX.

nmonteith
16/04/2004
11:11:15 AM
This thread lost me a long time ago. I am very confused....

Tel
16/04/2004
11:42:50 AM
Ok I read BA's ewbanks post and I can understand it easily enough.

** XI 30m 18
A bold undertaking up an exhilarating wall. RP's are essential if you want to adequately protect the lower wall. Start near toe of buttress and climb moderate ground with poor pro. Committing moves then lead to base of crack in middle of wall. Up this until it peters out, then step R and continue up pockets finishing steeply. Easliy to the top. Mike Law, Peter Watson May 76.

keys words:........... my interpretation:

bold undertaking..... it is pretty scary

moderate ground..... medium to quite hard

poor pro................. just keep thinking of the sequence, dammit

committing moves.... we're not in kansas any more toto

peters out............... hail mary full of grace ...

up pockets finishing steeply.... it'll be fun my arse

easily to the top ....... do little dance..make a little love..
get down tonite, get down tonite
Suffice to say that I find the description more than adequate


the scary runout, needs to be retrobolted issue was raised in regard to Rats Alley 19, and the guide books description seems to fit with Robins' interpetation of the climb

guide book says :
just enough wires to keep you smiling

Robin says:
protection was totally adequate and there is a bomb proof #4 or #5 wall nut that can be place half way between the ground and the first bolt???

I am not a good climber at all, my experience in climbing amounts to at most 2 dozen sessions in a gym, and a total of 5 outdoors ventures since Jan this year.
grades ..well for me,
12 - 15, I should be able to it
16 - 19, I am working really hard,
20 - 23, you got to be kidding!
24 - 34?, "tell him he's dreamin'"
My point is that I think the ewbanks sytem is ok, and I don't like the idea of homogenising and pasteurising routes (retrobolting). If one of the issues is that gym climbers hitting the cliffs for the first time may end up hurt, because of grades lack of description etc, then they have just bitten off more than they can chew. On the days I have been out those that are leading always seem to start off with grades around 10 - 14 so as to warm up and become familar and get their head in the right space etc.

Climbing is based on many unwritten rules and ethics and morals, which have been passed down through each generation of climbers, some of which are now gospel. By trying clearly define or give property rights to each mode of climbing then the chances are, that it will transform into something else entirely.
Climbers tend to define climbing as a sport, why?, yes the advent of gyms has in turn created a sporting aspect, and yes Bouldering and Climbing comps do have a defined set of "rules". But climbing on the whole ?.
Is it a sport because it is strenuous?, or because it requires a degree of fitness?, or because it is outdoors?.
To me therein lies the problem, if something needs to be clearly defined it is climbing itself, not the grading system and not by trying to get cohesion from separation.
As mentioned above ' the rules' of climbing are basically moral and ethical judgements, so it can't really be a sport as there is really no rule book.
In my thinking by doing something that is based on moral and ethical grounds, I am choosing to participate in a "lifestyle". So climbing as a "lifestyle", what does this entail?, I see this as being experiences, epics, adventures and a conscious decision to adhere to the ethics set down by predecessors. For that is where the joy and appreciation come from, and that is also why we have a "climbing community". A website or a campfire where we regale one another with stories, things to do, places to climb. Sounds more like a "lifestlye" than a sport to me.

tel, whose post is very much the way he climbs.... sketching all over the place ;-)

IdratherbeclimbingM9
Online Now
16/04/2004
12:15:54 PM
Think I will give you the penthouse (that I received from Hex) Tel.
Well said.

Damietta
16/04/2004
12:30:26 PM
Tel,

Thanks for putting so much effort into your reply. I find it difficult to argue with much of it, and I don't particularly want to.

The example of XI is a good one, it is an absolute classic route, it has been climbed thousands of times, will get countless more ascents, at a very popular area which has had numerous, excellent guidebooks produced over the years - it is more the exception than the rule. I was reading a letter to the Editor in the most recent edition of Rock where someone lamented a terribly inadequate guidebook description.

I think my point about property rights, and the linkage between some definitions and people's respect for them - ie levels of difiiculty and boldness, is still well met.

Using my example of the British yet again - they are famous for their reverence of a bold lead followed by tall tales over a pint with the lads later that night - classic stuff. The British system underwent numerous evolutions as they went through the process of determining what they value, and set about the issue of defining it - their unique, national climbing ethos and identity was only strengthened by this process.

I am not particularly motivated to see routes retrobolted or regraded, or our grading system radically overhauled (utmost respect due to John Ewbank - what a legend), but the simple point was that an objective measure of the difficulty and boldness of climbs would go a long way in Australian climbing, for the reasons I have listed in the previous threads..

hex-TROLL
16/04/2004
3:05:20 PM
Grass-hopper WM--- From the seed(crappy little English crags) grows the Lotus flower(10m>1000m mind-excursions) '...which rises from the muddy waters to blossom , making it a symbol of purity and resurrection...'---maybe the E grade can un-muddy the waters and separate the 'boy'23s from the 'men'23s...

Luv [your colonial/aussies grief-complex with 'The Mother-Country'---maybe thats what (also) J.E.(sus) was reacting against...],HEX.

hex-TROLL
16/04/2004
3:40:27 PM
So glad you enjoyed the walk up the garden path,past the lilly-pond---ve haf vays of makink yu THINK (about the key issues) ...

& your estimated E-grade of LF is ?...

Luv, HEX.
rolsen
16/04/2004
4:02:30 PM
On 16/04/2004 Tel wrote:

>** XI 30m 18
>A bold undertaking up an exhilarating wall. RP's are essential if you
>want to adequately protect the lower wall. Start near toe of buttress and
>climb moderate ground with poor pro. Committing moves then lead to base
>of crack in middle of wall. Up this until it peters out, then step R and
>continue up pockets finishing steeply. Easliy to the top. Mike Law, Peter
>Watson May 76.

I'm not so sure XI is a good example - I think it shows old guidebooks can be out of touch (with changing developments in protection) and new guidebooks (and their editors) that simply copy and paste and add new topos should have a look at themselves.

I climbed XI quite a few yeasr ago so my recollection might not be 100% - but I don't agree that it is adequately protected climb - I think protection is good/great. It is roughly around my climbing level so I think I'm a pretty good judge of climbs at this grade.

Admitedly you need to scamper up an easy slab for a few metres before the good protection but I would've thought the start to the bard (six grades less) is similar and longer with much more potential for real problems. Once you get to the first wire(s) they are bomber and you can add two (admittedly in the same crack) easily. From there you can step up and place the so called essential 1 RP (only two or three feet above the great wires.)

Commiting moves past the RP get a flake of sorts (memory is failing) which you can shove a pretty good large cam in. This cam woould be 3 or 4 feet above the RP, 5 or 6 above the bomber wires! From there the rising traverse is pretty straight forward - with pretty good rests. The major pockets on the traverse take a cam each - then there is easyish ground to the end. When the traverse ends I'd plugged 3 good cams (from memory).

I think the older guidebook descriptions don't take into account most people's rack of cams. In this case the essential RP's aren't essential at all, but I still placed them (of course, I climbed this one before I found out bold was back!)

> A website or a campfire where we regale one another with stories, things to do,
> places to climb. Sounds more like a "lifestlye" than a sport to me.

At the end of the day, if you're climbing trad talk to people, start up the route, know your limitations and back off if you need to.

Richard

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