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The Pines loosing its pines


Richard

25-Apr-2008
7:59:43 PM

On 22/04/2008 Capt_mulch wrote:

>The best thing to plant would be exactly what originally grew there.

No, because as you say..

>you have to take into account the use of the area - if it's a camping spot you need to >provide plenty of shade and promote the plants that are the most hardy in a high use >area.

Also, it's likely best to remove (at least some of) the mature trees first, because new seeedlings don't need shade, they want sun and water to grow, rather than have to compete for the water with the existing trees.

The current pines provide litte shade - theres a couple with decent foilage at the bottom of the camp ground, but the rest are pretty thin.

Cheers


Capt_mulch

26-Apr-2008
6:11:29 AM

>The best thing to plant would be exactly what originally grew there.

I mean originally as in before us whitefellas stomped all over it.

prb

28-Apr-2008
10:46:11 AM

Can we still call The Pines The Pines please even if there's no pines. Maybe a few callitris can be put
into the mix even though they're not really pines.

ZERO

28-Apr-2008
1:55:07 PM

>Um, my reply above yours has a picture of one of the trees getting cut
>down in September. We weren't behind a barrier, but they did ask us to
>move one of our tents, just in case. For the record, I was drinking coffee.

It just didn't look like "the pines" with all that green.


Eduardo Slabofvic

28-Apr-2008
4:44:45 PM

On 28/04/2008 prb wrote:
>Can we still call The Pines The Pines please even if there's no pines.
>Maybe a few callitris can be put
>into the mix even though they're not really pines.

Maybe they could plant Black Box (...oooh errrr.....)

springistheseason

29-Apr-2008
11:42:47 AM

>i hope all the climbers and PV can make the re-planting thing possible. i dream about arapiles and wish i could afford to come back. i had some amazing days there. all you aussies are lucky.

I hope so too!! Its such a gorgeous area!
Your right, yes... yes we are very lucky! :-D

1-May-2008
2:07:17 PM

I'm glad everyone has decided what trees to plant . The reality is the existing pines need to be removed completely before replanting can commence . For successful regeneration this would mean closing the area for about 10 years . The choice , which is not likely to be given to climbers , is when the inevitable demolition will begin ? It may not be for another 10 years but if an alternative camp site is established soon it may be ready when the pines are removed .

TLockwood

1-May-2008
2:18:17 PM

On 1/05/2008 sc wrote:
> but if an alternative camp site is established

Well for the most of the year the gums would have enough room to hold campers would it not? perhaps not over easter and such long weekends.


howzithanging?

1-May-2008
7:56:38 PM

i like the oroginal idea of planting the pines in the camp ground, something different, mixes it up a bit. why would it be better to stcik to what grew originally??
there are trees that will grow fine there that are introduced species, the enviroment is changing, maybe the trees need to...

watering something to "just get it established" is a bigger job than you think, where is the water going to come from, trees take years to become established, especially in the harsh un fertile soil found at araps, seeing the water on the weekend, almost no penertration at all it was unreal... i think that what ever is chosen it will take a huge effort, from people to keep the trees going, end not wast time money and effort...

MY tree is better than yours

peace out


IdratherbeclimbingM9

1-May-2008
9:11:17 PM

Hmmm, interesting reply howzit.
I had not considered that point till now.
I still tend to think there must be an endemic equivalent (I hope so at least!), that will fill the need.

Wendy

2-May-2008
2:51:27 PM

On 1/05/2008 howzithanging? wrote:
>i like the oroginal idea of planting the pines in the camp ground, something
>different, mixes it up a bit. why would it be better to stcik to what grew
>originally??
>there are trees that will grow fine there that are introduced species,
>the enviroment is changing, maybe the trees need to...
>

I think the pines look rather ugly actually, they really don't fit in with the rest of the landscape and why replant them just because someone in 1935 thought they were a good idea?

And why will introduced species grow fine???? In most places where introduced species have been planted they have failed abysmally, with the exception of the ones that are babyed or become weeds. We aren't going to baby the trees and we don't want any more weeds. What is wrong with the native vegetation anyway? It grows happily across the rest of the mount without anyone watering it at all. The golden wattles look and smell amazing in flower, the wallowas are beautiful thick green shrubs, yellow gums, red gums, black box, grey box, they are all very attractive shade producing trees. There are 2 or 3 sorts callitris, which are also gorgeous trees, but unfotunately grow very slowly, unlike my first options which will bound up in no time. Relatively speaking. The purple flowered mint bush is divine, if only it would grow int Nati.

Remember the north campground 15 years ago? How well has that revegetation gone? How pretty is the red gum area beside the loos? I think we should not to be too nostaglic about pines and go for a mixed native planting like that. Pines also trash the soil and plantations have discovered that they can't even grown more pines on them after the 2nd generation. The soil is already unbalanced by them, compacted by years of camping, esp when you could drive in, so to replant anything at all there, a lot of work is going to be necessary. Otherwise the pines would have self seeded. Take a look around NZ to see how well pines can self seed. I think we are lucky that our conditions are too harsh for them to take over.

Wendy

ZERO

2-May-2008
4:34:21 PM

Whatever is planted we are looking at 20+ years before anything will be providing decent shelter.
Let us also consider that some indigenous species have the nasty habit of shedding tree sized limbs without warning, and are therefore unsuitable to planting in a camp area.
And having spent many a wet day in NZ pulling out Pinus contorta seedlings I am voting against putting in more. We should only be putting Aliens in small cracks en route.

dazasterplan

2-May-2008
10:16:17 PM

everyone is talking about water, and the removal of the pines how about this, when the pines are removed install a temporay shelter with water collection stored and piped into underground dripper irrrigation. this will give shade and be safe from tree fallor limb drop. planting areas can be established close to these shelters and once established the shelter can be removed and used at another site. voila new campground with mixed native species then we can think about reconstructibg the understorey herbs and grasses.in the big scheme trees and shrubs can usually establish in 2-5 years then after that there on there own as wendy said look at the mixed planting behind the composting loos that used to be preety bleak now its a great spot to camp.
The problem with the above area is that there are too many paths and when it rains run off can be disasterous. Again with a bit of ground work that run off can be directed into exsisting trees with some mulch around the base etc, etc. We shoulb be thinking about capturing as much rainfall (when it happens remember last years natimuk festival) at the site as possible then redirecting to where its needed. Just remember the reason were all talking about this is cause we all love to camp at the mount under some type of tree.(Kerrin- horticulturalist helping reconstruct native pastures throughout Victoria even out round mount araps)


Organ Pipe

3-May-2008
12:27:26 AM

On 2/05/2008 dazasterplan wrote:
>...when it rains run off can be disasterous. Again with a bit of ground work
>that run off can be directed into exsisting trees with some mulch around
>the base etc, etc.

I have noticed several times after December / January thunder storms, the impact that heavy rain can have on the ground at the pines. There is usually a massive migration of sand and pine needles down the slope of the campground.

It will be interesting to see how the campground changes once the pines are gone. Cause love em or hate em, the current non indigenous pine trees do contribute massive amounts of organic material onto the campsite floor. Once they are removed, even if replaced with indigenous connifers (like the Calitris pines that are native to the area) I doubt that the ground will be capable of holding it's fragile soft covering of sandy soil and organic material.

It'd be a real shame to rock up to the pines campground in 5 years and be met with a dust bowl of stones.

POST EDIT:

To any of you involved with this transition / plan at the pines: best of luck! I'll be rootin' for ya! It's not an easy task to manage.

MichaelOR

3-May-2008
10:01:02 AM

It is time to act now! The gums camp ground was established and planted in the time I have been climbing. I returned to araps for the first time in 5 years (hard to drive past the Gramps!) last w/end and camped in the Gums. It has taken years, but it has worked.
When I started climbing in '88, you could drive into the Pines and camp! Times have changed.
The combination of years of soil compaction, insect infestation, drought and age means that the Pines need to go..... they have no future. They should be removed in one hit, the soil ripped up across the ground slope, and the area planted with natives of the Mount. It'll take another 10-15 years to be established, but it needs to be done soon.
Camping in the Gums maybe adequate for most of the year, but Nati Lake can help with overflow.
We cannot ignore reality - the Pines camping area will be out of action for for a period of time.
Michael


howzithanging?

8-May-2008
6:10:57 PM

hehehe
" In most places where introduced species have been planted they have failed abysmally"
that is quite amusing

i'd say maybe a tad of a generalisation

hehehehe

hehehehe

ps... hehehehehe

widewetandslippery

9-May-2008
8:57:18 AM

Plant lantana and Araps could be like Nowra.


tnd

9-May-2008
9:08:53 AM

It'll never be as good as Nowra.

Wendy

9-May-2008
11:11:16 AM

On 8/05/2008 howzithanging? wrote:
>hehehe
>" In most places where introduced species have been planted they have
>failed abysmally"
>that is quite amusing
>
>i'd say maybe a tad of a generalisation
>
>
>hehehehe
>
>
>
>
>hehehehe
>
>
>
>
>ps... hehehehehe

The maturity of conversation around here overwhelms me at times ...

Is not "trees that will grow fine there that are introduced species" also very general? Perhaps you have some more intelligent suggestions to offer?

Having lived out here for 10 years, working on plenty of reveg projects, weed removal and growing stuff in my own yard, I have a good idea of what grows around here. I did offer 3 suggestions that pretty much covers all options on planting - roses and vegies will grow here if you baby them. Peppercorns, palms, bridal creeper and horehound all successfuly became noxious weeds. Other people thought perhaps drought tolerant western australian species would survive well here, along with lake albacutya salt tolerant red gums, but in fact, in planting along nati creek and around the lake, these trees mostly died whilst local species survived. Even hardy mediteranean species like olives, rosemary and lavender keel over and die here if you ignore them enough.

Given that I have not removed a single pine seedling from around the mount, I can only assume that the existing trees survived because they were babied. Otherwise, where are all the other pines so easily growing in that environment from the many many seeds dropped over the years?

In order to grow here, trees need to be drought, frost, salt and lime tolerant and happy in infertile soils, be they heavy clay or sand. You can go searching the world for something that might fit the bill, but why bother? Nature has provided many species adapted to these conditions by thousands of years of living with them. Make life easy for yourself and go with them. Keeps the rest of the local environment and wildlife happy at the same time, not to mention a very outspoken collection of local (and not so local) environmentalists.

Wendy


Capt_mulch

9-May-2008
12:40:01 PM

Good one Wendy, my sentiments exactly. We need more bush regenerators on the job!! (at least someone who understands vegetation management).

Re: planting Callitris - you could plant Callitris and rename the area "The Callitrises". This would make a lot of people confused and hence keep the crowds down. VTIC.

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