General Climbing Discussion

Author	Keep outa my crack - Trad routes as projects?
Chuck Norris 4-Feb-2008 9:54:29 PM	On 4/02/2008 nmonteith wrote: >I always wondered... can you charge someone who 'steals' your bolted route >for the price of the bolts? A typical 6 bolt sport route costs about $80 >to bolt.... the thought of getting an invoice for "stealing" a route is enough to make me start training again. That would go straight to the pool room that one.
simey 4-Feb-2008 11:23:09 PM	What is the story when it comes to spying a line but choosing to not bolt and climb it because it would detract from neighbouring routes. What ownership does the original person have if someone later bolts and climbs it with a different consideration for aesthetics?
sliamese 5-Feb-2008 7:10:05 AM	On 3/02/2008 nmonteith wrote: >I reckon people who feel its ok to steal other routes have never spent >a day wire-brushing bird shit and lichen off a new route for hours on end. and you cant explain it to them... i think for me it comes down to a respect thing. if someone really wants to do that route, cant i be nice and let them? i spose once id done every other route in the area (say the gramps) thats on trad gear, then i can happily say 'im going to do this route with knowledge it will piss you off'. but if theres other stuff i havent done yet, why do that, give them a few more weeks and then do it then. theres some very 'bottom-feeder attitudes going on!!
chris 5-Feb-2008 7:51:07 AM	Ha Simey! I've heard that one before...."I was going to bolt that years ago!" If you haven't gone to the effort of putting the bolts in yourself then you haven't got a claim to it mate!! Maybe I could claim the rest of Taipan wall because I "was going to bolt it years ago but I thought I wouldn't because it might detract from neighbouring routes!!!"
simey 5-Feb-2008 8:38:03 AM	On 5/02/2008 chris wrote: >Ha Simey! I've heard that one before...."I was going to bolt that years ago!" I'm not talking about, "I was going to bolt that years ago". I'm talking about, "I deliberately didn't do that route years ago because it would be an eye sore and affect neighbouring routes". >Maybe I could claim the rest of Taipan wall because I "was going to bolt it years ago but I thought I wouldn't because it might detract from neighbouring routes!!!" There are a few routes established on Taipan Wall recently that are defintely detrimental to the aesthetics of the crag. Bolting and chalking every bit of climbable rock is making for an ugly mess up the right end. Claiming ownership or priority because you bolted a contrived and/or minor route that preceding climbers had the good judgement to leave isn't exactly visionary.
tradtroll 5-Feb-2008 9:43:20 AM	I got to thinking over night about foriegn presidents... I saw an awesome film last year called return to sender. It was about the drama of the first ascent of a trad crack 'kubra crack' in squamish. Eventually Sony climbed the route and Didy (names slightly changed to avoid this popping up in searches) lost out. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4412627116373823923 According to the so called consensus emerging yesterday, adama has a right to 'his' crack because he is trying really hard and really wants it. I don't want to take it from him - but I disagree strongly with the idea a trad line can become a project. According to the film above Sony heard about the route - he didn't scope it out himself. So, my question is: Do Neil and adam think Sony stole Didys route? and If not whats the difference? hypothetically speaking of course!
nmonteith 5-Feb-2008 9:49:03 AM	It was an open project way before Didy came along! That route has been attempted by all and sundry for decades. It was also an old aid route so had been climbed by hundreds of previous people in dubious fashion. Not really the same thing. It was like saying that The Nose was Lyn Hills project - it had already had heaps of aid removed (and holds created!) by others previously. It just took that little bit of extra omph to get it complete.
Dave J 5-Feb-2008 9:56:10 AM	On 4/02/2008 simey wrote: >What is the story when it comes to spying a line but choosing to not bolt >and climb it because it would detract from neighbouring routes. What ownership >does the original person have if someone later bolts and climbs it with >a different consideration for aesthetics? > I kind of agree Simey. I dont really see a need for every concievable linkup to be documented and would prefer people to put there energy into major lines which have still to be climbed. Maybe it should be possible to place an "aesthetic conservation covenenant" on a strip of rock which sits between a couple of major lines. Maybe peregrins could be encouraged to nest in these areas or something?. Some crags have been designated "bolt free zones" like the barbados cave and I am amazed at how well that has been observed. Not that anyone has done the lines there on gear but It hasnt been completed bolted up like I expected it to be. Neil there's something else for the projects list half a dozen natural lines at barbados 28-34? (a little bit necky). On 4/02/2008 nmonteith wrote: >I always wondered... can you charge someone who 'steals' your bolted route >for the price of the bolts? >A typical 6 bolt sport route costs about $80 to bolt.... It must cost that much just in petrol to drive up to the grampians for the weekend. Think of the poor chap who has to fly over from the other side of the country to steal that project. They're going to be laying out a lot more than $80. I think Ken Palmer gave malcolm some money for bolts after he did "Path of Yin" at Muline. Nice. Malcolm had told him he could have a go (but I don't think he expected him to get very far...much less cruise it). Mike Weeks who handed over the money said malcolm had a face on him like a smacked arse (I think Ken thought he was doing the right thing but Malcolm saw it more as adding insult to injury). Would you feel any better at all neil if some euro came and stole your project and then asked you if you would prefer to take visa or travelers cheques?
nmonteith 5-Feb-2008 9:58:24 AM	On 5/02/2008 Dave J wrote: >Would you feel any better at all neil if some euro came and stole your >project and then asked you if >you would prefer to take visa or travelers cheques? I'd burn his tent down using the fuel from his Wicked van.
tradtroll 5-Feb-2008 9:59:34 AM	nmontieth wrote: >It was an open project way before Didy came along! That route has been attempted by >all and sundry for decades. It was also an old aid route so had been climbed by >hundreds of previous people in dubious fashion. Not really the same thing. It was like >saying that The Nose was Lyn Hills project - it had already had heaps of aid removed >and holds created!) by others previously. It just took that little bit of extra omph to get >it complete Who declared it 'an open project'. My point is no one tried to, and no one had the right too. It was simply there for any one to climb who felt so inclined (and had really really strong fingers). According to this thread, several other people had been to the olive cave and seen the crack and at least thought about climbing it. It is possible someone had aided it before - who knows. I believe the distinction your making is too fine to be credible. The history of trad climbing is rich with 'coveted fist ascents' and a competitive spirit. It would have been a poorer history if that history had been filled with closed projects.
nmonteith 5-Feb-2008 10:03:49 AM	In the end it's not my project anyway. I just have the respect to let Adam work it by himself. If he wants me to have a go - I will. It looks totally desperate near the end anyway!
IdratherbeclimbingM9 5-Feb-2008 10:04:59 AM	Dave J wrote; >You would probably find that the person who's gear it was had already done an aid ascent already but not thought it worth mentioning to anyone. Hmm, interesting concept. If that ascentionists only wanted the glory of the route name and their name in a guidebook then they could always claim the aid ascent but still let it be known they were trying to free it as a project? >Does avoiding fixed gear on aid lines rate as a new kind of ascent or is it just better style? Better style in my opinion. >And then (as far as Im concerned anyway) the aid details are only worth talking about until the route gets freed so I dont imagine it would both the project owner that much...You'd probably only get one tyre slashed for that sort of thing. … Unless the ‘project owner’ had a vested interest in guidebook glory as mentioned above? simey wrote; >What is the story when it comes to spying a line but choosing to not bolt and climb it because it would detract from neighbouring routes. >What ownership does the original person have if someone later bolts and climbs it with a different consideration for aesthetics? Good question simey. I think there is a LOT to be said for consideration of aesthetics. As an example leaving lines bold for future aspirants of that genre of the game, rather than squeezing in contrived lines or murdering the adventure out of a line by bolting it into submission. This without the obvious consideration of area ethics like ‘not bolting gritstone’ or Ben Lomond! Mind you the stalwart who practices this aesthetic ethic would never be recognised as having ‘prior claim’ to the route!!
Dave J 5-Feb-2008 10:07:55 AM	On 5/02/2008 nmonteith wrote: >It was an open project way before Didy came along! That route has been >attempted by all and sundry for decades. I agree...Its different....I think once a route has been opened to the public it should stay that way. perhaps whoever first thought of free climbing the line should have been given a few days grace (that would have elsapsed a long time ago) But that sort of thing though, with top international climbers throwing themselves at an open project, is the sort of climbing competition I would be interested in seeing more of. So much more real and exciting than a bunch of people in a gym trying to climb as far up a series of plastic holds as they can for a trophy and maybe a bit of cash.
nmonteith 5-Feb-2008 10:14:44 AM	Cash rewards for Taipan first ascents? Now there's an interesting concept for CRUX! We could set a list of 5 un-climbed classic routes in Australia - and put a few hundred $ onto each one... proof to be supplied by video camera or three independent witnesses perhaps? These spring to mind at Taipan.... Nether Gilgamesh Agent of Cool Mortal Combat Any other suggestions?
Dave J 5-Feb-2008 10:27:34 AM	On 5/02/2008 tradtroll wrote: > >Who declared it 'an open project'. My point is no one tried to, and no >one had the right too. It was simply there for any one to climb who felt >so inclined (and had really really strong fingers). I think once the first person who has discovered the line has failed on it (given up) then it should become a free for all. >According to this thread, several other people had been to the olive cave >and seen the crack and at least thought about climbing it. It is possible >someone had aided it before - who knows. I believe the distinction your >making is too fine to be credible. No-one had attempted Adam's line before. A few people had seen it. I had scrambled on the first couple of moves but I wasnt going to go any further without a rope. Adam was the first one to actually seriously attempt the line so I think he deserves a good go at it. >The history of trad climbing is rich with 'coveted fist ascents' and a >competitive spirit. It would have been a poorer history if that history >had been filled with closed projects. I completely agree with that. recent ascents of 36's will just be statistics in a few years and people will still be talking about the first ascents of things like everest (or karma sutra on a more local front).
Dave J 5-Feb-2008 10:36:49 AM	On 5/02/2008 nmonteith wrote: >Cash rewards for Taipan first ascents? Now there's an interesting concept >for CRUX! We could set a list of 5 un-climbed classic routes in Australia >- and put a few hundred $ onto each one... proof to be supplied by video >camera or three independent witnesses perhaps? > >These spring to mind at Taipan.... > >Nether >Gilgamesh >Agent of Cool >Mortal Combat > >Any other suggestions? I'd like to see another line above Spurt wall. Up to and through that big roof flake. Ground up...no bolts. Im willing to put $80 on the table (you can buy yourself a whole new sport route for that). Maybe you could throw in a years subscription to CRUX neil.
nmonteith 5-Feb-2008 10:44:02 AM	This actually reminds me of a route we eventually got Malcolm to do down near Red Rocks - called Grand Oral Disseminator (27). I can't remember if it was me or Tim Marsh who found it first - but it was both found it independently around the same time. An amazing curving crack only 10 minutes from the road, but quite hidden away from the eyes of prying climbers. I was very surprised it hadn't been done before by Malcolm, Dave, Steve - any one of these strong trad guys. Both Tim and I kept it secret for years, always promising to go back and do it. I even talked it up to a few other climbers but no-one seemed that interested in helping. Eventually I got Malcolm in about 5 years after first spying the line to try the gorund up ascent. After wathcing him huf and puff and falloff i knew it was going to be hard! I was surprised when he opted to put a bolt in it at its widest point - the rock was super slick and wide, but im sure in the 80s he wouldn't have considered it! Anyway - it took him a few days work but he eventually did it. Anyway - similar line, similar situation - I was happy to see it done. For me it would have taken much longer. Not sure what the point of that little story was... this route still stands un-repeated. One of the finest natural lines in the Grampians in my opinion.
nmonteith 5-Feb-2008 10:47:14 AM	On 5/02/2008 Dave J wrote: >I'd like to see another line above Spurt wall. Up to and through that >big roof flake. Ground up...no bolts. >Im willing to put $80 on the table (you can buy yourself a whole new sport >route for that). Maybe you >could throw in a years subscription to CRUX neil. Yes - i could throw a subscription into the prize pool!* * CRUX will not pay for your medical bills if the cliff collapses whilst attempting this challenge.
ademmert 5-Feb-2008 11:08:14 AM	I seconded HB on this route and although i didn't get it clean it is totally 3 stars go treat yourself and do!
tnd 5-Feb-2008 11:32:50 AM	On 4/02/2008 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote: >What about the situation where a route has been done trad, but the trad >ascensionist doesn't bother writing >up a route description and advertising the fact that the route has been >done. Then someone comes along >and puts some bolts in it and turns it into a sport route, and then writes >up a route description and >advertises that the route has been done, so it's generally accepted by >the guide book writers that the route >was first done by the bolter, and the trad ascension disappears into history. This happened with Abbey Road (18) at Sooty Crag in the Blue Mtns. It was climbed by Rod Young and Ant Prehn in 1980 and "rediscovered", bolted and renamed Chimera in the early 2000's. It was a genuine mistake though and once it was known the original name/FA were restored (the bolts remain though). (The nearby Young/Prehn corner crack Windy Row [16] was similarly rediscovered - but not bolted - and renamed Sooty for a while).

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