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Keep outa my crack - Trad routes as projects?

simey

4-Feb-2008
8:57:04 AM

On 3/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:
>And anyway, Baxter probably aided that crack at Olive Caves before you were born. Just didn't bother naming it because he thought it was a choss heap.

I doubt it. Baxter writes up all his first ascents, no matter how worthless they may be.

Ronny

4-Feb-2008
9:06:15 AM

I think the big difference in all this is whether the would-be first ascentionist/route-stealer picked the line themselves or got the idea from the person who's trying it.

As an example, before I left Adelaide I was trying a direct finish to a line at Moonarie. It could possibly have had a bolt, but I wanted to keep it all trad. I rapped in, checked it out, cleaned it etc. Now I don't claim its a 'project', but if one of my mates who I'd told about the line went and climbed it without seeing it for themselves just because I'd pointed it out, I'd be rather pissed.
On the other hand, if someone happened across it and thought (like I did) 'that looks cool', and did it then fair enough. I'd be fairly disappointed if someone was to put a bolt in it though. And if they then tried to claim it was their project and I had to keep off then I'd think things had got way out of hand.


wallwombat

4-Feb-2008
9:08:40 AM

On 4/02/2008 shawkshaw wrote:

>Indeed. You make it sound like we have no energy when in fact bundy and
>I have actually stood underneath this crack system (without climbing gear
>gear at the time). I cant imagine anyone would bolt it, but all bolters,
>it seems, have low ethics so you never know. It may make an ok trad route.
>
>like any project you don't have to keep off it but i think if you knew
>someone was actively trying it it might be nice to give them a chance to
>do it. Although it was interesting watching the dueling FA attempts on
>Cobra Crack.

Steve, I know you and Bundy have boundless energy. "The crag that doesn't exist" is testament to this. The walking comment was actually designed to flush Rod out, which it did.

I've stood under the crack too. I went across from TCTDE last week, which wasn't that hard but was scrubby and involved a fair bit of Brown Snake dodging (long pants are mandatory). The creek at the bottom is a pleasant interlude and good to soak hot feet.The otherside is certainly very scrubby and overgrown along the base of the cliff.

I disagree about bolting that crack. It may be the only way to protect it as it is pretty bloody wide. Wider than a #5 Camalot, I reckon. Anyone got any Big Bros?

It will never make a GOOD trad route but it is a line that screams out to be climbed nevertheless.

How do you let people know that you are actively trying a trad route without broadcasting that routes existence and the fact that it is unclimbed? It's much easier with sport routes.

Anyway, if I do know that someone is actively trying a first ascent of a trad route, I would certainly give that person a chance to do it. Considering that my route, "Beatrice the Kelpie" was such a protracted affair and the route had more gear hanging off it, for a time, than a lot of El Cap routes do, I think that is only fair.

I still, don't think that people should naturally expect others to keep of their trad projects. It is very wishful thinking.


wallwombat

4-Feb-2008
9:11:26 AM

On 4/02/2008 simey wrote:
>I doubt it. Baxter writes up all his first ascents, no matter how worthless
>they may be.

True.


alrob

4-Feb-2008
9:21:00 AM

whack in a high first piece and red tag it.


Macciza

4-Feb-2008
9:23:05 AM

Re: Grasshopper - Mikl actually suggested Zac and I look at this route over a year ago but we never got
around to it. So Mkl gets to project on it now and we respect that unless he offers us shots.

Just wondering - If someone has a closed bolted project that could go on gear, am I allowed to try it on
gear so long as I don't use any of their stuff? I think it should be ok just not sure of the implications . . .


wallwombat

4-Feb-2008
9:29:22 AM


HM33

4-Feb-2008
9:42:03 AM

Of course you can, you can also try the project using their bolts but its nice to show a little decency to other climbers and stay off if you know its a project.

if the project has remained dormant for a while then its a different kettle of fish.


Macciza

4-Feb-2008
9:49:24 AM

On 4/02/2008 shawkshaw wrote:
>Of course you can, you can also try the project using their bolts . . .

I guess my point was more - if you 'should' stay off the bolted project can you do it clean?


HM33

4-Feb-2008
10:00:23 AM

to make it murkier. what if someone decides they can solo someones bolted project, or lead it with only 1 piece of gear in the middle of the route, or climb it on marginal gear etc. Surely its easier to leave projects alone until they are done or sufficiently neglected.


nmonteith

4-Feb-2008
10:02:05 AM

I think common decency is all that is required. We live in Australia, there is tonnes of un-climbed rock everywhere. If you have to steal others projects because you either lack the vision or energy to find your own then it says a lot about the sort of person you are. Anyone can trace a piece of art and call it their own.


wallwombat

4-Feb-2008
10:14:33 AM

On 4/02/2008 nmonteith wrote:
>I think common decency is all that is required. We live in Australia, there
>is tonnes of un-climbed rock everywhere. If you have to steal others projects
>because you either lack the vision or energy to find your own then it says
>a lot about the sort of person you are. Anyone can trace a piece of art
>and call it their own.

Yes, agreed.

But how do you know if a trad line is someone's project, Neil?


Eduardo Slabofvic

4-Feb-2008
10:22:50 AM

On 4/02/2008 Macciza wrote:
>Just wondering - If someone has a closed bolted project that could go
>on gear, am I allowed to try it on
>gear so long as I don't use any of their stuff? I think it should be ok
>just not sure of the implications . . .

What about the situation where a route has been done trad, but the trad ascensionist doesn't bother writing
up a route description and advertising the fact that the route has been done. Then someone comes along
and puts some bolts in it and turns it into a sport route, and then writes up a route description and
advertises that the route has been done, so it's generally accepted by the guide book writers that the route
was first done by the bolter, and the trad ascension disappears into history.


Macciza

4-Feb-2008
10:25:15 AM

On 4/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:

>But how do you know if a trad line is someone's project, Neil?

List it publicly on the ACA database is what I do . . .


anthonyk

4-Feb-2008
10:26:07 AM

in practise i'd probably keep off a climb someone was keen on & had put work into simply because they want to be able to do it first & its probably much more of a deal to them. just common decency, but not because i think they've got some right to claim it because they got there first. of course that assumes you're only interested in climbing it, not bragging about it & calling it your own.


nmonteith

4-Feb-2008
10:42:32 AM

On 4/02/2008 wallwombat wrote:
>But how do you know if a trad line is someone's project, Neil?

It's a hard one! I guess by a bit of research, checking out old guides, asking other climbers who know the area well. If there is obvious chalk on the route but you can't find it in the guide then i guess a quick question on a forum usually gets the answers. I'm always amazed of the speed and depth of replies when you ask something on these forums. Within a few hours I can usually get some very useful info about any Grampians crag or route. In the modern era of instant communication and online resources its pretty hard to stay ignorant about something i reckon!

Dave J

4-Feb-2008
11:08:12 AM

>The BIG difference between these examples and new trad routes of today
>is that these older examples were FREE attempts of previously aided routes.
>They had already been climbed, cleaned and named. The first ascent competition
>was just to be the first to remove all the aid.

Im pretty sure that routes like Master's Edge were never done as aid routes before they were freed. I
think that claiming ownership of cracks is a bit dubious (and as for claiming ownership of boulder
problems). I think people used to be a lot more competitive about things 20-30 years ago, racing each
other for first ascents with no assumption that everyone else would just wait for you to get up it.
Mountain climbing, of which rock-climbing is a descendent, seems to have none of this courtesy, even
though the ascent of something like everest would take months of effort cost a heap of money and
possibly your life.

People usually pull out the "money and effort in preparing the route" line but really, if the route is at
their limit then the time and money spent perparing the route is pretty negligible. If someone from
natimuk went out and bolted a route at araps and the very next day someone from sydney flew down
to steal it and it took them, say, 3 shots then they would have invested more time, effort and money
that the person who prepared it (but that probably wouldnt make them very popular with said
natimukian). Its more to do with the effort someone is putting in to actually climbing a route than
preparing it. It would be a fairly low act to steal a route from someone who has been trying to do it for
an age but people who prepare a route and then just add it to their collection of projects and expect
others to stay off it are pushing the limits of courtesy a bit.

Having the vision to actually see that a wall might be climbable should buy the climber with the vision
a bit of time too (more than preparation time actually). If someone spots a line up an unclimbed bit of
wall that peoplle have been walking past for years, they should have the opportunity to do it. But
again, if they're not trying it at every opportunity...they shouldnt expect people to stay off it for ever.

People who are actively going out and developing crags and routes deserve a lot of respect from other
climbers as there are very few people actually making that sort of effort. But staking a claim on a
prominent natural line seems a bit backward.

Some of the most exciting first ascents (and best days climbing) I've had are ones where I've gone out
with a climbing partner and we've both been trying do the first ascent of the same route. Even the ones
where I was pipped at the post I still feel very much a part of the first ascent. Climbing like that, I
found myself trying extra specially hard to get up things as it was quite possible this it was going to be
my last ever chance to bag the first ascent. It's a shame there isn't more of that sort of thing going on.
I wish there had been someone trying Agent of Cool with me back then, I think it would have helped a
lot with motivation.


ado_m

4-Feb-2008
11:20:51 AM

"what difference does it make, is it just about being able to stick your name on it and give it a title? if climbing is about a personal challenge and personal enjoyment it wouldn't matter if someone else has also tried it. seems to me that naming & claiming is entirely driven by social rewards not personal ones."

clap clap - people take this gig far too seriously and forget that it should be about fun.


evanbb

4-Feb-2008
11:35:54 AM

On 4/02/2008 ado_m wrote:
>"what difference does it make, is it just about being able to stick your
>name on it and give it a title? if climbing is about a personal challenge
>and personal enjoyment it wouldn't matter if someone else has also tried
>it. seems to me that naming & claiming is entirely driven by social rewards
>not personal ones."
>
>clap clap - people take this gig far too seriously and forget that it
>should be about fun.
>

I strongly disagree with this. Surely there's some fun and personal pride in being the first person to do something, anything, not just in climbing.

ademmert

4-Feb-2008
11:38:10 AM

Seeing as my crack route seems to have started this whole debate I'll give my 2cents worth

I think that if someone has put in a reasonable amount of effort (cleaning and/or bolting) then that person should be given a reasonable length of time to try and tick it, but if it is left dormant or that person is just to slack to get back to it regularly to finish it off, then it should be open to the public.

With my crack route, i totally intend to be up there every weekend trying it and have been training quite hard for it, but if i don't get it with in a reasonable time frame (or i just think it's to hard for me) then i will be happy to hand it over to anyone who wants to have a go. I want to see things climbed not locked up for ever!

Lastly i believe in do unto others as you would have done to yourself!
If you had spent many day preparing and working a route would you want someone else to come and steel it from under you?

Ps. I will let this forum know and all interested parties as soon as i tick this crack or decide its to hard

There are 157 messages in this topic.