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Keep outa my crack - Trad routes as projects?

Dave J

27-Feb-2008
7:42:51 PM

Good one!

Well done adam...and malcolm

mikl law

28-Feb-2008
7:19:09 AM

It's an awesome line, it looks like the crux of Procul Harem times 7. Here's a crap shot of Adam fixing the top bolt (it was an ethical placement - he couldn't reach it) which shows the top 2/3rds of the line.


Rich

28-Feb-2008
8:23:00 AM

Nice work Adam!

f_abe

28-Feb-2008
9:14:05 AM

What would have been an ethical placement would be to have not placed it and run it out on trad like the rest of the line (oh, except for the first bolt, conveniently placed 18 inches to the right of what looked to be a bomber cam slot - gotta hang that red tape from somewhere as my partner for the day said...). No doubt many narrow minded chockstoners will accuse me of having tall poppy syndrome but this is not the case. Neither is it a direct attack on the first ascensionist. It is simply an opinion on some disapointing ethics. A line like this (and it is a hell of a line) doesn't come along too often, and whacking bolts in before climbing it on pre-placed gear (why not just bolt the whole thing?) seems to me to be bad form. At the end of the day I don't really care cos I will never climb it, and people can do with it as they want so long as it makes them happy (hey, I rap in and pre place gear as well but they are definitely not the climbs that that mean the most to me), but there are those out there with the skills and the balls to do it all on trad, but that chance has now been denied. I guess it's all about the tick after all...


phil_nev

28-Feb-2008
9:55:25 AM

Hmm, i thought you would have got all that bitterness out off your system in your crux article... apparently not.

Great work Adz.


nmonteith

28-Feb-2008
10:21:09 AM

On 28/02/2008 f_abe wrote:
>and whacking bolts in before climbing it on pre-placed
>gear (why not just bolt the whole thing?) seems to me to be bad form.

I'm confused - do you want it all bolted or all trad? What's wrong with mixed climbing? I believe the route climbs quite to the side of the 'crack' you mention with a quite a bouldery move, i think the bolt may have even been sticked clipped? Not sure - i only watched the aiding and cleaning!

The upper bolt is required i'm pretty sure. When Dave had a go he had to bail left into Tazer because there was no good gear up there (before the bolt was re-positioned).

Pre-placed or not pre-placed - well, the gear was certainly placed on lead originally but the epic that would come from cleaning it between each try would make it quite impracticable (think 35m horizontal roof traverse). It's a grey ground on a repeat - but since this is the way the first ascent was done then i see no need to worry. I know I certain mustached climber who has done first ascents of trad routes with pre-placed gear recently. Its the '00s not the '80s.

The guys with the skills and balls had their chance ten years ago when it was shown to them by Kieran. They just chose not to get their act together to climb it... thats the breaks i'm afraid... :-)

Cath

28-Feb-2008
10:24:05 AM

On 28/02/2008 f_abe wrote:
>Neither is it a direct attack on the first ascensionist.

Really??? You make some strange comments, for someone not trying to attack the first ascentionist. Of course you have a valid point about not placing bolts on predominately trad lines, but everyone has their own opinion on this, and it's not a debate I have any desire to rehash all over again.

With comments such as "gotta hang that red tape from somewhere", and "there are those out there with the skills and the balls to do it all on trad", your disclaimer of not attacking the first ascentionist seems plainly untrue. Maybe a return to basic English lessons would be a good idea for you, as you plainly are experiencing some confusion over the meaning of your statements, and are unintentionally being nasty and sarcastic.

On 28/02/2008 f_abe wrote:
>"before climbing it on pre-placed gear (why not just bolt the whole thing?)"

The gear was placed ground up, not pre-placed on rap. And you ask 'why not just bolt the whole thing??' Since when is leaving in the gear for your repeat attempts, the same as bolting the whole route????

On 28/02/2008 f_abe wrote:
>At the end of the day I don't really care cos I will never climb it, and people can do with it as they want so long as it makes them happy.

Exactly. You try and climb that start with no bolt, on the 'bomber cam placement' as you call it, and then come back and post about how unneccessary the bolt is. People who may actually be able to do it all on trad have been up there, looked at it and walked away. And furthermore, have been encouraging of Adams' attempts, and had no issue with being 'denied their right to climb it all on trad'.


nmonteith

28-Feb-2008
10:36:04 AM

On 28/02/2008 Cath wrote:
>People who may actually be able to do it all on trad have
>been up there, looked at it and walked away. And furthermore, have been
>encouraging of Adams' attempts, and had no issue with being 'denied their
>right to climb it all on trad'.

Pat, Malcolm and Dave are all softc--ks anyway! :-)

In the end of the day tradsters won't be disappointed with the amount of trad placing, thrutching and crack climbing in this route. Sport climbers can just do Tazer 5m to the left.

Dave J

28-Feb-2008
10:58:56 AM

>The upper bolt is required i'm pretty sure. When Dave had a go he had
>to bail left into Tazer because there was no good gear up there (before
>the bolt was re-positioned).

When I was up there neil the only gear I had with me was 1 quickdraw ... there was no point me
running it out to the next wire placement when I didnt have any wires with me (and I was pretty
exhausted by that point so the bolt on Taser was a lot more appealing than a 6 meter lob).

I think the route could possibly have been climbed without bolts but cleaning the gear off between
each shot would have been a nightmare. Obviously climbing the route placing the gear would be a
better style of ascent and if/when I go back there thats what I will try and do but if I fall off I won't be
pulling the gear all out just so I can put it back in again on my next attempt. Im pretty sure that route
will get a lot of attention in the next while an it wont be too long before someone manages to onsight it
placing the gear.

At the end of the day I think Adam has probably just established one of the better routes at the grade
in the grampians and he should be pretty happy himself (fairly sure he is).

simey

28-Feb-2008
11:06:55 AM

I didn't mind f_abe's comments. I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning or challenging people on the way that routes are climbed.

But judging by what Neil and Cath have said about the intricacies of the route, as well as its history, then Adam's ascent sounds like a good effort.

28-Feb-2008
3:58:56 PM

On 28/02/2008 simey wrote:
> I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning or challenging people on the way that routes are climbed.

Only if its objective. And I haven't noticed f_abe get on his soapbox about HB bolting Grand Oral Disseminator or a million other "maybe it'd go on trad" examples out there. The only difference in this case seems to be that this route wasn't established by one of the "name" climbers.

well done Adam


tmarsh

28-Feb-2008
5:05:11 PM

On 28/02/2008 f_abe wrote:
>A line like this (and it is a hell of a line) doesn't come along too often

The line has been there all along.

What doesn't come along too often are climbers with the dedication to explore new areas and spend the time, effort and sometimes money in putting up great routes so that all the bottom feeders can come along and criticise their work from the ground.

>there are those out there with the skills and the balls to do it all on trad,
>but that chance has now been denied.

Those skillful ballsy trad climbers are just as entitled to get up off their righteous arses and do some new routing of their own, I would have thought.


bluey

29-Feb-2008
9:27:15 AM

On 28/02/2008 WM wrote:
>On 28/02/2008 simey wrote:
>> I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning or challenging
>people on the way that routes are climbed.
>
>Only if its objective. And I haven't noticed f_abe get on his soapbox
>about HB bolting Grand Oral Disseminator or a million other "maybe it'd
>go on trad" examples out there. The only difference in this case seems
>to be that this route wasn't established by one of the "name" climbers.
>well done Adam

Here here. Nice one Adam (soon to be "name" climber)!

f_abe

29-Feb-2008
12:42:46 PM

As usual, chockstoners have banded together to protect one of their own and disected my every word to shoot me down in flames.
Just because I disagree with your opinions doesn't make me right. And vice versa. All I was saying (except for directly and personally attacking the first ascensionist along with anyone who knows him!) is that I reckon the bolts were superfluous given the style of climb, regardless of who put it up.

People can do what they want but once a bolt is placed you have created something that dictates the future, whether it be a badly placed carrot at Araps, a nice sport route at the Gallery, some 'designer danger' run out on Taipan or even a worthless (in MY opinion, you can all go and climb whatever takes your fancy!) buttress in the depths of Crag X.

I am not talking about any other route (although I have plenty of opinions about some other recent 'developments', but I'll leave them for now just in case I meet one of you in the Gramps one day and you lynch me and run me outta the state for good) simply because iut is far too big an issue to ever resolve.

Everyone has different views. These were mine. Perhaps I should just accept that the Gramps need to be climbed out by 2010.

Style has been deteriorating for decades and I'm the first to admit that I have made many ethical transgressins where my desire to tick a route saw style go out the window. But as a happy bottom-feeder (although if you want new routes check out the road between Millenium and Crystal Palace, feel free to claim them if you must;-) I've never dictated to anyone else how to climb. I'm not saying it's wrong to, I just reckon that care needs to be taken in this regard.

Sport routes are great. So are mixed routes. But maybe, just maybe, leaving some lines all trad could also be good?
And for the record, anyone who thrutches up a route tlike that without falling is doing pretty damn well.


bluey

29-Feb-2008
12:47:02 PM

All of that's fair enough. I just think it is unlikely that other new-routers would have got the grilling Adam has received over this route.

widewetandslippery

29-Feb-2008
12:55:20 PM

Which crag x are you refering to homo?

simey

29-Feb-2008
1:18:44 PM

On 29/02/2008 bluey wrote:
>All of that's fair enough. I just think it is unlikely that other new-routers would have got the grilling Adam has received over this route.

I dunno about that. If you had heard me getting stuck into Malcolm Matheson last weekend about some of his bolting on the first pitch of Serpentine (on the weekend that we were meant to be celebrating the route), then you would realise that just about anyone is open game.

Julian Saunders has copped a bit of flak over some of his efforts over the years as well.

And how much shit did I give Dave Jones for bolting Ergonomics at Arapiles (and subsequently retrobolting Strolling RHV).

I reckon Adam got off lightly.


bluey

29-Feb-2008
1:21:29 PM

On 29/02/2008 simey wrote:
>On 29/02/2008 bluey wrote:
>>All of that's fair enough. I just think it is unlikely that other new-routers
>would have got the grilling Adam has received over this route.
>
>I dunno about that. If you had heard me getting stuck into Malcolm Matheson
>last weekend about some of his bolting on the first pitch of Serpentine
>(on the weekend that we were meant to be celebrating the route), then you
>would realise that just about anyone is open game.

Would have liked to have seen that!

widewetandslippery

29-Feb-2008
1:28:00 PM

And what about the time mexican S came to Cheesedale, climbed a crack and didn't bolt it! Wogs, you are all wogds I tell you.

PS. the girl was pretty simey but I thought you were gunna die...

Pss. agree about serpentine pitch 1, to shit of a climber to comment about the real thing.

simey

29-Feb-2008
1:35:05 PM

On 29/02/2008 widewetandslippery wrote:
>PS. the girl was pretty simey but I thought you were gunna die...

The girl turned out to be a lot more dangerous than the climb.

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