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Advice on lowering from a bolt..

wyt91t

10-Sep-2007
7:53:04 PM

i would have found a ring then lowered off thus leaving nothing behind


Macciza

10-Sep-2007
7:57:21 PM

On 10/09/2007 wyt91t wrote:
>i would have found a ring then lowered off thus leaving nothing behind

Wow - what an amazing idea? Depending on the crag you could be traversing for a long long time?


mousey

10-Sep-2007
8:19:32 PM

if there's no rings, whitey is very unlikely to be climbing there anyway


skink

10-Sep-2007
8:29:00 PM

On 10/09/2007 Macciza wrote:
>Jeez - what is it with climbers today? 'Every' glue-in needs to be tested?
>All carrots suck? Man up!
>The loads you are putting on the stuff are miniscule! 2kN at most - a
>rurp or 2 RP would hold it!

I would never rap of a #2 RP, and I don't generally carry a rurp.

>I assume both people were siting on the bolt at some point before rapping
>- therefore they have
>effectively tested it to slightly over 2 body weights -with movement lets
>say 200 kg.

Nope, I understood one of them traversed in to the bolt in question, so the point is to treat it with some suspicion before committing two lives to it.

>So he lowers the climber the load is slightly less than 2 BW due to lowering
>rate -

Nonsense, if you lower some one at a steady rate the force is a constant BW. Anytime you lock them off and they bounce, the force spikes above BW by some amount (prolly small though).

>2 people simulrapping is exactly the same except more fun and you can
>talk on the way down you
>both get down quicker and can walk out earlier and if it goes wrong neither
>of you are left with a dead
>mate.

2 people rapping is at least double the load on the anchor, potentially more if you get some synchronised bouncing going a la SAS embassy invasions.

>The extra weight is really not an issue - the wire rated at ~10kN
>the bolts probably good for 20 -
>neither of them is very likely to get pushed off or out by a subterrainian
>gnome! Doubling up on biners
>is rarely necessary IMHO whatever the books say and if using a mallion
>don't use one that's too thin

Agree the gear strength is not an issue... it is the bolt connection to the rock that I would be most concerned with - bottomed out carrot bashed one too many times, that one glue-in put in with the dregs in the glue gun, hole not dusted clean, yadda yadda yadda
>
>Does anyone else on this forum actually know how to sit on a drawed carrot
>and still put a wire on the
>bolt take of the draw and bolt plate then rap? (Edi:t apart from Josh
>and Kyle)

I think you three guys are the only ones who actually climb

>
>And for godsakes people if it were a nice shiny ring surely you would
>just thread it and simulrap if you
>were both sitting on it?

Yep, after giving it a bit of a bounce :-)

>Every time a bolt gets fallen on it is essentially being load tested -
>if it is there when you get there and
>it does not fall out when you both sit on then I think you could pretty
>much say it is bomber!

Yep, this is why the top anchors and belay bolts are doubled up - they don't get fallen on so haven't passed, shall we call it, the Macca test

>
>Oh and as for the bad bolt photos referred to, half of them look like
>they would be fine to rap off - I'll
>send you some shots of some 'real' bad bolts sometime.

Cool, people can print the photos and use them to decide if a random bolt they come across is good to rap off. Would save yards of time instead of all this backing it up, one at a time, slow and steady waste of space that climbers have been using up until now.

>
>God I can't believe how much crap has been said already to end up with
>this reaction from me and I'm
>sorry if I have offended anyone . . .

Not offended, just amused. I feel kinda sorry for the guy who asked the question tho...


Macciza

10-Sep-2007
8:43:22 PM

On 10/09/2007 andesite wrote:

> . . if you lower some one at a steady rate the force is a constant BW.

What so if you just let them freefall they still load the system - I don't think so . . .


mousey

10-Sep-2007
9:22:15 PM

macca- despite you being comfortable with dodgy shit on a personal level, i thought you more than almost anyone would understand that many of the old carrots ARE timebombs and occasionally they DO fail...
will they hold when someone raps on them? probably. should they be replaced with shiny rings? probably not. but should you be preaching that they are bomber? no way.

simply because of the way you are, i understand that you will never endorse a 'comfort' factor in climbing, but lets be honest- if everyone did it your way, lots of people would probably die.


skink

10-Sep-2007
9:31:33 PM

On 10/09/2007 Macciza wrote:
>On 10/09/2007 andesite wrote:
>
>> . . if you lower some one at a steady rate the force is a constant
>BW.
>
>What so if you just let them freefall they still load the system - I don't
>think so . . .
>

steady rate = no acceleration = no change in their apparent weight = force on anchor is BW

freefall = acceleration at g = apparent weight goes to zero

Read all about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_weight

kieranl

10-Sep-2007
10:47:43 PM

On 10/09/2007 wyt91t wrote:
>i would have found a ring then lowered off thus leaving nothing behind
Must be an economist, defining the starting parameters to suit the desired solution.


dave h.

10-Sep-2007
11:09:53 PM

On 10/09/2007 Macciza wrote:

>Does anyone else on this forum actually know how to sit on a drawed carrot
>and still put a wire on the
>bolt take of the draw and bolt plate then rap? (Edi:t apart from Josh
>and Kyle)

Could you please describe how to do this Macca?


Macciza

10-Sep-2007
11:14:37 PM

>On 10/09/2007 andesite wrote:
>
>Read all about it:
>
Maybe you should . . .


Macciza

10-Sep-2007
11:18:20 PM

Yeah, I will but I am interested to see if this knowledge has disappeared from the climbing community
first ( or at least see if the youngun's can work it out)


cruze

11-Sep-2007
8:42:29 AM

I am not a young gun, but just thinking about it:
Can you thread a smallish wire through the keyhole of the bolt plate (small biner holding your weight) clipping end first. Just before the 'stopper end' of the wire goes through the keyhole you loop it over the head of the carrot. Then you rotate the wire around the carrot with force (or shift your weight off the hanger temporarily) to get it past the hanger.


Chuck Norris

11-Sep-2007
8:58:18 AM

On 11/09/2007 cruze wrote:
>I am not a young gun, but just thinking about it:
>Can you thread a smallish wire through the keyhole of the bolt plate (small
>biner holding your weight) clipping end first. Just before the 'stopper
>end' of the wire goes through the keyhole you loop it over the head of
>the carrot. Then you rotate the wire around the carrot with force (or shift
>your weight off the hanger temporarily) to get it past the hanger.

no you clip the wire loop through the top biner and then put the wire behind the plate, transfer weight
and wrestle a bit to unclip everything.


cruze

11-Sep-2007
9:03:07 AM

Actually I was going to change my idea to say that the only part that needed threading (from the back of the bolt plate) was the 'stopper end' of the wire peeled back.

So what you are suggesting is that you open the gate of the top biner to clip the wire? Sounds pretty much like my idea (re the wrestling) except you only have one biner in use...

Like most things with gear, it wont make sense to me until I actually try it on a carrot. And given my comments above on this thread that will be the only time I will bother trying it.


Chuck Norris

11-Sep-2007
9:30:49 AM

to be clear - i meant the stopper end loop (with stopper pulled back) clipped through the top biner. Then
put this loop behind the bolt plate. Then clip the normal clipping part of the wire to the rope and transfer
weight onto this. The draw is now completely unloaded and the wrestling bit is that the original
(unweighted) draw is is pinned between the rock and one side of the wire that is now weight bearing.

In general its not to hard to unclip but if the bolthead is close to the rock and it is physically impossible to
release any weight off the wire then it can be a bit of a frig - but usually OK.

can't see why macca couldn't just post this in the first place.

widewetandslippery

11-Sep-2007
9:42:15 AM

The way I do it. Pull head down on wire. Clip into biner rope is going through. slip wire under rope. clip wire out of biner. Wire is now around biner/draw. Slide up draw and over back of bolt plate. Clip rope/biner onto normal end of wire and trnsfer wieght.Dismantle draw/bolt plate combo. Lower/rap. Flick.


oweng

11-Sep-2007
10:09:40 AM

I never seem to have bolt plates, or bolt plates that fit lately. So I generally have already clipped the carrot with a wire to start with!


The good Dr

11-Sep-2007
3:56:40 PM

Why bother with frigging around with crappy carrots when you can just rap off a skyhook anyway. Means you don't have to find any bolts!


nmonteith

11-Sep-2007
4:29:23 PM

pfffttt! Skyhook! Just solo back down.


wallwombat

11-Sep-2007
4:43:19 PM

Skyhooks aren't cheap.

A couple of months ago I rapped of a piece of sandstone I wedged in a crack. I backed it up with gear and my partner went first and when it didn't disintergrate, I took away the pieces and very tentatively abseiled of it. At the time I was a bit pissed off that I had to leave a sling .

There are 78 messages in this topic.