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Hardrock in the city at last


dreamingof8a

31-Jan-2008
2:16:01 PM

Hey Mr. Rich, how's your foot?

31-Jan-2008
2:28:01 PM

What size Allen key is required? I might just take my own if there's none on site.

devlin66

31-Jan-2008
2:32:35 PM

5/16" for the 3/8" caps screws (an 8mm will work in a pinch)
7/32" for the 3/8" countersunk screws (a 5.5mm will work in a pinch)


Rich

31-Jan-2008
3:34:34 PM

On 31/01/2008 dreamingof8a wrote:
>Hey Mr. Rich, how's your foot?

Yeah much better now thanks Felix.. climbed 2 multi-pitches on Central Buttress on Sunday and it was really bruised after but meh, it was worth it.

hey can you shoot me over your details so I can pay you for the shopping?


Cliffhanger

1-Feb-2008
5:22:32 PM

running a gym is almost a public service! You'll notice there was not a mad rush to rebuild the "money making machines" that was VR and The Mill!


Cliffhanger

1-Feb-2008
5:28:23 PM

Actually after 15 years in the gym industry, the personal satisfaction is really dwindling!

I wonder if Maccas is hiring?

I hope you guys think Cliffhanger is receptive to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, we are always adding stuff people request, route setting fortnightly and as far as i know, our holds aren't spinning too much - providing of course you aren't out on the outdoor wall, as rapid changes in temperature and humidity (most likely what Hardrock in the City are experiencing under all that north facing glass) does actually make your walls expand and contract, minutely, just enough to loosen and tighten your holds.


ShinToe Warrior

1-Feb-2008
5:37:40 PM

On 1/02/2008 Cliffhanger wrote:
>running a gym is almost a public service! You'll notice there was not a
>mad rush to rebuild the "money making machines" that was VR and The Mill!

The fact that VR and The Mill were on prime inner-city real-estate probably had a lot to do with that.

Also, with the ongoing spinning hold problem at Hardrock CBD: If someone from hardrock posted and explained specifically what they were doing to attempt to resolve the situation, then the ongoing frustration of gym-goers - who are also at increased risk of injury - might cool down a little.

Tim, I've made the trek from the eastern suburbs semi-regularly to climb with people who are members at cliffhanger. No-one held a gun to my head to make me do that. There are things I like about Nunawading Hardrock, and there are things I like about cliffhanger. Variety is good.

I don't think anyone's having a go at you here. You seem to run a good gym, and thankyou for that. But it's not a public service. It's a business. If you want to get out of the business and have trouble finding a buyer at a price you are ok with, that would suck, but that's your problem.

Having a go at people who post on a public internet forum about a genuine problem gives me and possibly others the perception that you're getting all bunched up about this, and that you perceive that negative feedback about another gym is somehow also an attack on cliffhanger and a personal attack on you and the industry as a whole.

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but it isn't the case.

There are only complaints on the forum re hardrock CBD because there's a PROBLEM.

I don't go to Hardrock CBD because of this. Neither, it seems, do a significant number of other people.


cruze

1-Feb-2008
6:31:16 PM

On 1/02/2008 Cliffhanger wrote:
>I hope you guys think Cliffhanger is receptive to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism,
>we are always adding stuff people request, route setting fortnightly and
>as far as i know, our holds aren't spinning too much - providing of course
>you aren't out on the outdoor wall, as rapid changes in temperature and
>humidity (most likely what Hardrock in the City are experiencing under
>all that north facing glass) does actually make your walls expand and contract,
>minutely, just enough to loosen and tighten your holds.
Not to worry, I think that you guys run a really good gym. In fact, your location in Altona is one reason we are moving to the west in the very near future so that we don't have to battle the Westgate after work.


ajfclark

1-Feb-2008
10:35:44 PM

On 1/02/2008 Cliffhanger wrote:
>...as rapid changes in temperature and
>humidity (most likely what Hardrock in the City are experiencing under
>all that north facing glass) does actually make your walls expand and contract,
>minutely, just enough to loosen and tighten your holds.

So the evaporative air conditioning at Hardrock in the city may not just be ineffective at cooling the patrons but may actually loosening the holds as well?

darkxst

1-Feb-2008
11:29:54 PM

On 1/02/2008 Cliffhanger wrote:
(most likely what Hardrock in the City are experiencing under
>all that north facing glass)

Well its not exactly north facing... It actually comes into the shade quite early in the day...

On another note though, has anyone noticed that on the RARE occasion when they do actually tighten the spinners, they end up in the completely wrong position.. Most routes there could probably be improved significantly with just a little bit of fine tuning from the route setters.

Really, how long would it take for an experienced route setter to fine tune a climb!


ajfclark

2-Feb-2008
8:18:40 AM

On 1/02/2008 darkxst wrote:
>On another note though, has anyone noticed that on the RARE occasion when
>they do actually tighten the spinners, they end up in the completely wrong
>position.. Most routes there could probably be improved significantly with
>just a little bit of fine tuning from the route setters.
>
>Really, how long would it take for an experienced route setter to fine
>tune a climb!

I'm not sure it even takes an experienced route setter; someone who has actually climbed the route as it was set or someone who can take a reasonable guess (Now that most things are graded this should be significantly easier than it was previously).

I've found that unless a hold can be tightened from ground level, staff just write your reports in the book and when it is eventually tightened, it's no longer anywhere near it's original orientation, it's usually more like where it ended up after it spun. In some cases this is fine, in others I've watched people come off again and again because the climb is now significantly more difficult than it used to be or is graded.

I remember one climb that used to be graded a 12 or 13. Over time 4 or 5 holds spun to be upside down. When asked to fix the route they just tightened the holds a was and regraded it a 15 rather than restore the route. Last I saw it has something like 7 or 8 underclings in a row. It used to be a decent climb for beginners to warm up on or start teaching people about leading and clipping. Now it's just ugly.

I've mentioned to the staff that I think they really need to get whoever set to route to make some notes so they can restore them to the original intent; there's a bunch of climbs that had difficult moves on them previously but due to movement of holds they're now significantly harder than they are graded. This problem seems to be ignored even more than the issue of the spinning holds itself is.


dreamingof8a

2-Feb-2008
10:21:16 AM

On 2/02/2008 ajfclark wrote:
>I remember one climb that used to be graded a 12 or 13. Over time 4 or
>5 holds spun to be upside down. When asked to fix the route they just
>tightened the holds a was and regraded it a 15 rather than restore the
>route. Last I saw it has something like 7 or 8 underclings in a row.
>It used to be a decent climb for beginners to warm up on or start teaching
>people about leading and clipping. Now it's just ugly.

I remember that climb, a black one? hehe, now it makes sense why this was a weird route.

>I've mentioned to the staff that I think they really need to get whoever
>set to route to make some notes so they can restore them to the original
>intent; there's a bunch of climbs that had difficult moves on them previously
>but due to movement of holds they're now significantly harder than they
>are graded. This problem seems to be ignored even more than the issue
>of the spinning holds itself is.

They should just use the holds in the direction they are supposed to be used according to the position in the route in the first place. So every routesetter has at least a rough idea of the original position.
And particularly easier routes don't need to be made awkward by putting a jug upside down so you can't hold it properly. Maybe occasionally in harder routes you want to turn a hold slightly otherwise it becomes boring, but a beginner shouldn't have to focus on out-of-balance moves on weirdly placed handholds and such things. That only leads to bad technique (like in the mentioned 15 with all the underclings, peole just throw ther feet onto the next foothold).


ajfclark

2-Feb-2008
11:19:54 AM

On 2/02/2008 dreamingof8a wrote:
>On 2/02/2008 ajfclark wrote:
>>It used to be a decent climb for beginners to warm up on or start teaching
>>people about leading and clipping. Now it's just ugly.
>
>I remember that climb, a black one? hehe, now it makes sense why this
>was a weird route.

It's a grey 15 on the pillar between the blue 14 (currently missing holds) and the blue 7.


rodw

2-Feb-2008
11:26:29 AM

At the gyms I climb in Sydney, if there is a spinner I ask for the Allen/hex key and jump up and tighten it...how hard is that? ...or is it forbidden to be pro-active in Melbourne.

Get over it people...its plastic..think of it as good practice for new routing...where all those "good" holds suddenly become not so good.


cruze

2-Feb-2008
4:34:15 PM

On 2/02/2008 rodw wrote:
>At the gyms I climb in Sydney, if there is a spinner I ask for the Allen/hex
>key and jump up and tighten it...how hard is that? ...or is it forbidden
>to be pro-active in Melbourne.
>
>Get over it people...its plastic..think of it as good practice for new
>routing...where all those "good" holds suddenly become not so good.
If you took that attitude at the new gym you would be paying them to fix their problems and neverget a climb in. You could not begin to imagine how many spinners there are.


ajfclark

2-Feb-2008
5:35:35 PM

john s

5-Feb-2008
10:13:05 AM

Has anyone actually talked to the owners about the spinners and the other issues that make this gym unattractive to regular climbers? At least we could end most of the wild speculation.

I'd be happy to organise a 'delegation' from chockstone posters. PM me if you'd like to join in.

John


nmonteith

5-Feb-2008
10:15:36 AM

They read these forums. They just choose not to reply!


ajfclark

5-Feb-2008
10:21:12 AM

On 5/02/2008 john s wrote:
>Has anyone actually talked to the owners about the spinners and the other
>issues that make this gym unattractive to regular climbers? At least we
>could end most of the wild speculation.

I've spoken to management many times regarding the problem of spinners and little visible action has taken place. I'm all for more people to talk to them though.

One problem they have taken some action on recently was the height of the draws, particularly the distance between the 2nd and 3rd draws being too great and the 1st one being so close to the ground as to be mostly useless. It felt that if you fell between the 2nd and 3rd draws there was a distinct possiblity of hitting the ground. They have moved the 1st draw halfway between the 2nd and 3rd. Though this makes the 1st draw a lot higher this arrangement felt a lot safer to me last night that the previous arrangement ever had.


garbie

5-Feb-2008
12:28:46 PM

On 5/02/2008 ajfclark wrote:
>
>One problem they have taken some action on recently was the height of
>the draws, particularly the distance between the 2nd and 3rd draws being
>too great and the 1st one being so close to the ground as to be mostly
>useless. It felt that if you fell between the 2nd and 3rd draws there
>was a distinct possiblity of hitting the ground. They have moved the 1st
>draw halfway between the 2nd and 3rd. Though this makes the 1st draw a
>lot higher this arrangement felt a lot safer to me last night that the
>previous arrangement ever had.

There's a Euro Standard that stipulates draw heights, the same heights will be in the soon-to-be-released Aus Standard - I'd be surprised if they are not following these standards? The first draw must be no higher than 3.6m, then there is a formula to follow. E.g if the first is at 3.0m, the 2nd is at 4.0, the 3rd at 5.2, the 4th at 6.6. After the 4th the interval can be greater than 1.4m according to the formula but we keep it at 1.4 after that.

Does anyone have an estimate of the heights there?

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