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Removing bolts to create trad paradise


tmarsh

5-May-2007
3:54:15 PM

On 5/05/2007 uwhp510 wrote:
>And on a related topic; as for the mexicans whinging about sport routes
>with one or two bits of gear; suck it up homos, the rock and quality of
>gear placements is the envy of the rest of the country.

Which ironically is probably the reason behind the Victorian tradition of mixed gear and bolt routes in the first place: the rock for the most part takes great gear, but every now and then requires a bolt to keep things safe/sane/sensible etc.

I wouldn't put myself squarely in the pro-bolting lobby (even though I've done a bit of it), but I do think the Victorian ethic of mixed routes is worth preserving.


Macciza

5-May-2007
4:00:55 PM

Maybe we should follow Skippy's logic -
Go out there and free the climbs on gear first - then we can pull the bolts and rename all the climbs ;-}


AlanD

5-May-2007
4:32:20 PM

On 5/05/2007 tmarsh wrote:
>Which ironically is probably the reason behind the Victorian tradition
>of mixed gear and bolt routes in the first place: the rock for the most
>part takes great gear, but every now and then requires a bolt to keep things
>safe/sane/sensible etc.

I'm probably going to say this poorly, hopefully you guys will get the gist.

Whilst climbs are graded on the technical difficulty, I think "keeping things safe/sane/sensible" is a factor worth considering when considering placing a bolt or chopping one, relative to the grade. For someone climbing near their limit, that bolt is making that climb safe if the climbing is running out, it's a different situation for someone cruising past who usually climbs 10 grades higher and the run out isn't an issue as they could probably solo the climb. Some consideration should be made to make the climb safe for those climbing near their limit* and I'm sort of suggesting letting people that normally climbs that grade to make the decision if the bolt should be chopped, rather than letting someone else who climbs 10 grades higher.

* I'm not talking about making the climb suitable for dogging or something.

tastybigmac

5-May-2007
5:55:35 PM

why don't we close the roads to the crag as well? this way it could have a traditional approach too.


Dom

5-May-2007
5:57:35 PM

Neil - If it really was someone else suggesting that Rosea be cleaned then perhaps you could encourage this person to come forward.

I share the concern of some other people on this forum surrounding tit for tat bolting. I've only been climbing for 9 years but heard plenty of tales of people getting involved in this kind of activity. Its easy to see why it happens when reading Kieran’s posts, these aren't just lines up rock formations to people like him (all FA's?), these are material reminders of good times. Never underestimate the importance of ego when you're post on this topic either. Simon made a point about sacrificing routes for the good of the vibe of the cliff but opinions will polarise over this issue I'm sure.

However, I disagree with Neil and Simon. People haven't gone nuts at Araps and it has very much the same ethic as the rest of our 'trad' crags - make it safe but don't go bananas. So I can't see that leaving existing bolts in place will be seen as an invitation to the sports climbers and grid bolters of the future.

Its time to hear from this friend of yours Neil. Maybe a few choice words from the man of the moment could turn the tide for you and simey :)

PensionerPower

5-May-2007
8:06:39 PM

On 5/05/2007 uwhp510 wrote:
> as for the mexicans whinging about sport routes
>with one or two bits of gear; suck it up homos

Does that also apply to niggers, coons, spicks and kikes, or only to homos?

PP


kerroxapithecus

5-May-2007
11:20:10 PM

I haven't read every post here and it may have already been said but this 'visual pollution of bolts' seems a bit arrogant to me. Can anyone explain what the negative effect is on the trad climber when they look at bolts near them?
Anyway who's going to police it and make sure it stays 'pure'?


Macciza

6-May-2007
12:00:43 AM

On 5/05/2007 kerroxapithecus wrote:
>'visual pollution of bolts'
> Can anyone explain what the negative effect is . . .

Pick a favourite route that you really enjoy, start with a bolted one - then imagine it with an extra one
or two bolts, or rings, between every existing bolt - how is it starting to look now . . . you don't have to
clip all of them . . .

Now take a pearler trad line and do the same thing - there is good pro but you don't use all of it - now
add a bunch of un-necessary bolts - what do you think . . . what if they were rings? . . .

Maybe It is like going on a bushwalk in wilderness only to find someone has put handrails up
rocksteps and bridges across creeks - sure you don't have to use them but they look out of place and
tend to ruin the feeling of self-sufficiency that you were seeking - why couldn't they cross the log . .

Also there is the joyful uncertainess of climbing into blank terrain as opposed to playing connect the
safety dots - altough I must admit with real old rusty carrots it is not as bad because you can
sometimes climb right past them and not see them until you are few metres higher , , ,

So basically the shinier they are the worse they look and rings are a worse look then bolts
I guess this is maybe one of those things that if it has to be explained, it is hard to understand . . .
Trad climbing is simply all fun and games until you get poked in your eye with a shiny bolt . . .

drdeviousii

6-May-2007
12:05:17 AM

>Does that also apply to niggers, coons, spicks and kikes, or only to homos?

Yep homos only. Don't apply unless you live in Prahran.

simey

6-May-2007
9:10:31 AM

The lack of vision by so many climbers on the site suprises me.

And I am struggling to understand why so many people are complaining given that no-one (apart from Kieran) seems to have first-hand experience of the few bolted routes that are there.

The reality is that Rosea won't be losing any mega-classics, but this proposal certainly helps preserve and enhance the wilderness feel and adventure element that is such a big part of climbing there.

And the argument that such a proposal is forty years too late is also misguided. If I thought this action eradicated a rich, proud climbing history, I would be of a different mindset, but the aid-routes and free-routes that have required bolts didn't set new standards, or push new frontiers, or become mega-classics.

The fact is that we are forty years the wiser and it is only now with hindsight that we can appreciate just what an unneccessary role bolts play at this cliff. And that characteristic makes Rosea a truly unique cliff.

As far as history goes... well such a proposal becomes a major part of Rosea's climbing history and shows far more imagination than allowing unthinking climbers in future years to bolt the gaps and devalue some of the best multi-pitch, adventure climbs in the country.


master of drung

6-May-2007
9:24:20 AM

People seem to get so defensive and self righteous about bolting issues and it leads me to wonder how confident they really are about the appropriateness of their position, these attitudes are almost always the domain of the unsure.

Some more thoughts

-Neil (who is raising a discussion not actually chopping bolts) is hardly a part of the anti-bolt brigade, i seem to remember something about a climb called Snow Flurries (which i think makes the earlier question of whether this cliff was rosea or the asses ears kind of interesting) and whether you agree with him or not is always considered about what he posts on this forum unlike many of his clearly angry and less considered respondants whether this idea is a good one or not it deserves some fair consideration

-keiran who is in a position of some authority for the negative needs to consider three things, the first that this appears to me to be a very preliminary step along the path to a bolt free rosea there is no reason first ascentionists could not be contacted as a future step, secondly, and i could be wrong about this, he doesn't seem to be seeing a large grey area of ownership between himself a first ascentionist and the rest of the climbing community/general publicand thirdly no-one is questioning his ethics or ability in his deciding to place the bolts in the first place this issue is about more than one or two climbs by themselves

-the argument that this sets a dangerous precedent may have some truth but is total bullshit, why do you think people have been arguing against bolts for a hundred years? and whats more they were right! there is a creep factor of bolting ethics as time goes by.

-to place a bolt is always an ethical dilemma, to chop a bolt is always an ethical dilemma, to not place a bolt is never an ethical dilemma, (if safety is an issue then just don't tell anyone about the climb), I think what is being proposed crosses some ethically questionable grounds in the short term but removes these issues at this particular venue for the forseeable future. It is just a matter of waying up the cost to the reward.

-regarding the true meaning and history of trad climbing in victoria. this may be interesting to discuss but has no bearing on the issue at hand. what is in question is whether it is worth chopping the aforementioned bolts given all the associated issues in order to create a bolt free climbing area of significance for current and future climbers.

-i prefer to use more tradional homophobic slurs like pansy or fruit.

james

6-May-2007
9:42:02 AM

>And I am struggling to understand why so many people are complaining given
>that no-one (apart from Kieran) seems to have first-hand experience of
>the few bolted routes that are there.

I've done One Night Stand & had a great day out (it was the 1st route at Rosea I did), & was glad the dodgy bolt & pin was there - from memory the pin protects a hard move right above a belay. Maybe its not the best mega-classic route on the cliff, but it was memorable day out. So does my opinion count now simey?

PS: I've had centre-fold photos in magazines & have (helped) publish magazines, so according to your rant my opinion is worth more than the average c-stone groupie.

tastybigmac

6-May-2007
10:40:40 AM

i'm serious about the road. if you had a longer walk in it would make it more remote and add to that
adventure feel. think about frenchmans cap.


six-sevens

6-May-2007
2:18:17 PM

Any route thet has bolts (that are required for safety) removed must be sinposted so those people without auto update on their guidebooks are not placed in danger by the self proclaimed debolter.

This persons identity is to be made public before any action is taken.

climberman

6-May-2007
4:00:45 PM

On 6/05/2007 six-sevens wrote:
>Any route thet has bolts (that are required for safety) removed must be
>sinposted so those people without auto update on their guidebooks are not
>placed in danger by the self proclaimed debolter.

errr, are you serious ? How do you think people deal with changes in the rest of the world ? If you climb every route expecting it to be verbatim according to 'the guide', how do you know the guide is right ? Climbs change, deal with it.

simey

6-May-2007
7:04:03 PM

On 6/05/2007 james wrote:
>I've done One Night Stand & had a great day out (it was the 1st route at Rosea I did), & was glad the dodgy bolt & pin was there - from memory the pin protects a hard move right above a belay. Maybe its not the best mega-classic route on the cliff, but it was memorable day out. So does my opinion count now simey?

Well your memorable day will still remain a memorable day regardless of what happens to that route down the track.

The routes I did at Rosea with bolts provided memorable days for me as well, but that doesn't mean they should stand as testaments to future generations simply because I had memorable day on them.


Macciza

6-May-2007
9:09:11 PM

Perhaps the same ultimate aim can be achieved by enforcing a moratorium on bolting/re-bolting.

First ascentionists can make their own decisions regarding removing bolts themselves and either do it
themselves or get /let someone else to remove the bolts.

I would like the aid stuff left if it's all a pretty dodgy that way I might break the bolts myself, or try for a
free ascent without the bolts and then remove them assuming the first ascentionist agrees.

Even though it appears the last route done there was in 91 - all this discussion may lead new bolting .
.
Every previously forgotten trad area in the Blue'ies has gradully had significant change from being very
traditional area to increasingly bolted - Now is the time to act -

simey

6-May-2007
9:17:01 PM

On 6/05/2007 Macciza wrote:
>Perhaps the same ultimate aim can be achieved by enforcing a moratorium on bolting/re-bolting.
>First ascentionists can make their own decisions regarding removing bolts themselves and either do it themselves or get /let someone else to remove the bolts.

Good idea.

Whoever wants to remove the bolts I've placed at Rosea is welcome as I don't think I will get around to doing it in the near future. They include the bolt on Scarface Direct (23) as well as the double bolt belay at the start of this pitch. There is also one bolt on Cruising (22).


Macciza

6-May-2007
9:28:09 PM

I hope this doesn't get us in too much trouble ;-}

Maybe we should all have a 'Climbers Meet' at the crag on a long weekend, climb and party, and have a
debate - You, Neil, and the 'Masked Mystery Man' from the 'climbable climbs for everyone' debate at the
Festival against whoever wants to step up. Cheers mate.


Macciza

6-May-2007
9:32:01 PM

On 6/05/2007 tastybigmac wrote:

>adventure feel. think about frenchmans cap.

Frenchmans Cap , , , Mmmmmmm . . . . Droool . . . .

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