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Australian Ethics

kieranl

17-Apr-2007
9:18:41 PM

Andesite, thanks for setting my mind at rest.

The real problem for me are the grey areas, not the clear-cut ones. Where there is dodgy trad gear, once upon a time I would place dodgy trad gear, even if the surrounding protection was bolts. Now I would place a bolt.
Midnights Children on Lower Taipan is a different issue. There is a horizontal break at half height that is a perfect cam placement, it's also the hold to build the next move on. I placed a bolt to be clipped from the hand-jam rather than use the best part of the hold for a cam placement. It was a judgement call. Some people could legitimately argue that the bolt just above the break wasn't necessary but all other runners were bolts so it seemed the correct approach for that climb.


Pei

17-Apr-2007
9:58:18 PM

On 17/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Can anyone name any other climbing areas in Australia that remain bolt
>free?

If my memory serves me correctly, there are a few areas in Western Australia which are no-bolt zones. I think parts of the coast near Albany, sections of West Cape Howe and parts of the Stirling Ranges. I think the climbing community came to a consensus to designate particular areas "adventure climbing zones" where there was to be no bolting, I think though it's kind of a voluntary thing i.e. it's not enforced by CALM (equivalent of Parks Victoria), though I think they were involved with discussion on the topic. Anyway this is what I vaguely remember from reading in the guidebook.

I think I quite like the idea of some areas being designated bolt-free (and this is coming from a sport junkie!) and I guess there is enough rock out there to make particular areas off-limits to bolting - but deciding which areas is sure to generate some controversy!

James

18-Apr-2007
12:18:21 AM

On 17/04/2007 shawkshaw wrote:
>isn;t there some isolated crag in QLD. Goanna point or something?

yep, no bolts, no names, no grades at Goanna Point - just rock up & choose you line (& its not even really that remote). There are a couple other similar areas in Qld. But the problem is these areas aren't published or publicised, so they can't be used as a 'shining' examples of bolt-free areas.

It seems that a lot of places (eg: Warrumbungles, Rosea maybe) that could be bolt free if they were discovered in these days of modern gear (micro cams & the like) had pins bashed into them way back when.

but the predomince of mixed route in Aust is cool (plenty of scary bold mixed routes round), the only real problem with mixed areas is this "grey" area & different people's interpretation - you will all be arguing about it for years to come.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-Apr-2007
11:59:39 AM

Vertigo wrote;
>i suppose its easy to have a one eyed view that no bolts in trad areas is the done thing.>however its also hard to see a great line with no pro and know that it has the potensial to be a great line,but without bolts it will never be.>i suppose you just except that and as i said before ,if you want to clip bolts you visit a sport area.

Your local area (Warrumbungles) has many great lines that have not yet been done, but which one day will on natural gear even if bold/runout. I agree with you that it does not need bolts but disagree that the lines will ‘never be’.
For the most part (imo), the trachyte in the ‘Bungles is quite accepting of natural gear but the soundness of it can be a worry at times, … though a bolt in choss would be no better!

Later Vertigo wrote;
>It has a bolted line on a Climb but that spire is not in the park,and are carrots.>The only other bolting are rap stations on the spires that there is no other way off. >And i think ,but am not 100% certain that these are NOT maintained by the park.

If you are referring to ‘The Needle’ then I think you will find it is now actually within the Park (though in times past wasn’t), although it’s access is still via private land (locked gates), unless you are into a mega-bushbash.
The descent route abseil stations that you refer to are maintained by the climbing contingent within the Coonabarabran Bushwalking Club.

uwhp510

20-Apr-2007
3:43:49 PM

On 17/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>Can anyone name any other climbing areas in Australia that remain bolt
>free?

Blue Lake in Kosciusko NP is completely bolt free and there is a big bolt free area in Albany (as
someone else mentioned). They call it the adventure climbing zone or somesuch.

One Day Hero

20-Apr-2007
3:44:05 PM

On 17/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>That doesn't count Vertigo. Bolted rap anchors are still bolts. I want
>to know about places with ethics as
>strict at English Grit.

This is a retarded comment!

English Grit doesn't need rap anchors because you can walk back to the bottom of your "route" in about five seconds.

Anywhere with real summits will have fixed rap anchors. It doesn't mean that the ethics are less pure, just that people have to get home somehow.

deadpoint

20-Apr-2007
3:55:41 PM

On 20/04/2007 uwhp510 wrote:
>On 17/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>>Can anyone name any other climbing areas in Australia that remain bolt
>>free?
>
>Blue Lake in Kosciusko NP is completely bolt free and there is a big bolt
>free area in Albany (as
>someone else mentioned). They call it the adventure climbing zone or
>somesuch.
>
>
Except for a piton or two


nmonteith

20-Apr-2007
4:04:31 PM

On 20/04/2007 One Day Hero wrote:
>This is a retarded comment!

Charming. Can you explain why this is a 'retarded comment' and not a legitimate query?

>English Grit doesn't need rap anchors because you can walk back to the
>bottom of your "route" in about five seconds.

My experiance at climbing on the larger grit crags was you either a) downclimbed an easy route or b)
walked for ages to find a gully. At crags such as Stanage it was quite some distance usually!
(certainly much longer than 5sec).

>Anywhere with real summits will have fixed rap anchors.

? Who climbs to the 'summit' at their local crag thee days? Ben Lommond summit doesn't have any
bolts - thats because it is a flat plateau with an easy ramp walk down. Pretty much like 99% of the
climbign areas in Australia.


nmonteith

20-Apr-2007
4:07:08 PM

>On 17/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>>That doesn't count Vertigo. Bolted rap anchors are still bolts. I want
>>to know about places with ethics as
>>strict at English Grit.
>
On 20/04/2007 One Day Hero wrote:

>This is a retarded comment!

And if you really think this is a silly request i dare you to go to the grit and install some rap bolts. Lets
see if THEY think there is a difference.


Macciza

20-Apr-2007
6:14:00 PM

>Can anyone name any other climbing areas in Australia that remain bolt
>free?

Any bit of virgin cliff . . . Just put up a new tRad route . . .
Better still just put up tRad routes at your local sport crag . . .
Or really upset the 'protectionists' by 'freeing' their favourite sport route of 'aid' . . .


BigMike

20-Apr-2007
9:01:24 PM

On 20/04/2007 One Day Hero wrote:
>On 17/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:
>>That doesn't count Vertigo. Bolted rap anchors are still bolts. I want
>>to know about places with ethics as
>>strict at English Grit.
>
>This is a retarded comment!
>

What IS it with people and internet chat sites?

ODH, if you were standing around with a bunch of climbers in a pub, and Neil said what he said, would you respond by saying "This is a retarded comment"?

I don't know you ... but I'd truly like to think that you wouldn't.

Challenging people's beliefs and contentions is one thing. Instantly questioning their mental fitness is something else.

Can't people just play nice these days?

gsharrock

20-Apr-2007
9:15:02 PM

Although the adventure climbing zone in SW-WA is designated a no-bolt zone, it has many bolted routes and anchors, most placed before the zone was established.

RE: Warrumbungles: it is possible to abseil from Tonduron, Belougery Spire, and Needle Rock without the bolt abseil anchors - with caution. W.r.t. Crater Bluff, I have only ever used the bolts but I imagine there would be plenty of cracks. In addition, there are definitely a number of old bolts on various routes - dont remember the names, but I do remember the bolts were very dodgy looking.

On the matter of dodgy bolts, I know several people who follow the ethic that they dont place bolts but are happy to pull them out if they are exceptionally dodgy. If a route is worthwhile it might be rebolted, otherwise, let nature take its course.

uwhp510

21-Apr-2007
2:47:46 AM

On 20/04/2007 deadpoint wrote:
>>Blue Lake in Kosciusko NP is completely bolt free

>Except for a piton or two

I didn't realise pitons were bolts.

(Sorry I know I'm nit picking...) but where are the pins? I've climbed a fair few of the routes there and
never come across them.


cruze

21-Apr-2007
7:52:31 AM

I know there is one on Necromancer (the large obvious corner) on the first belay ledge at the right hand end of Elephant Buttress.

One Day Hero

24-Apr-2007
1:12:58 PM

On 20/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:

>And if you really think this is a silly request i dare you to go to the
>grit and install some rap bolts. Lets
>see if THEY think there is a difference.

I don't think you're really staying on message here Neilo, what has retrobolting grit got to do with anything in Australia??

One Day Hero

24-Apr-2007
1:25:33 PM

On 20/04/2007 nmonteith wrote:

>? Who climbs to the 'summit' at their local crag thee days? Ben Lommond
>summit doesn't have any
>bolts - thats because it is a flat plateau with an easy ramp walk down.

Unfortunately I haven't been to Ben Lomond yet. If the walk down is close to the routes and not prone to erosion I would have no problem descending that way

>Pretty much like 99% of the
>climbign areas in Australia.

Ummmm....North wall of bungonia, warumbungles, castle crag, the pharos, candlestick, totem pole, bit's of the organ pipes, frog, red rocks and the nailbiter spike (A.C.T.).........even on taipan, there is an easy walk down which is totally disproportional in effort compared to the minor stress of having rap chains

One Day Hero

24-Apr-2007
1:47:23 PM

On 20/04/2007 BigMike wrote:
>What IS it with people and internet chat sites?
>
>ODH, if you were standing around with a bunch of climbers in a pub, and
>Neil said what he said, would you respond by saying "This is a retarded
>comment"?
>
>I don't know you ... but I'd truly like to think that you wouldn't.
>
>Challenging people's beliefs and contentions is one thing. Instantly questioning
>their mental fitness is something else.

>Can't people just play nice these days?
>
You're right, if I was in a pub with a couple of beers in me I wouldn't be so polite!

It's important to balance your respect for Neil's deeply held traditional ethics with the understanding that, in recent years, he has probably sunk more bolts into Victorian rock than everyone else combined! (not that there's anything wrong with that)

If someone writes something which I feel is retarded, that's what I'll say rather than "sorry old chap, I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you"


nmonteith

24-Apr-2007
1:52:55 PM

ODH, i wasn't for or against rap stations at the Aussie places you listed, i meerly wanted to know if there
was anywhere in Australia with anti-bolting as strict as English grit. (ie no bolts - ever). One thing i learnt
from travelling overseas in the 90s was that in America and Europe the concept of a rap descent on a
multipitch was normal. Every belay ledge had bolt anchors (or pitons) designed to be used to rap back
down the route. This wasn't something i was very used to in Australia, but in the 10 or so years since
that trip I have seen the proliferation of rap anchors has also exploded across our own Oz crags. Its an
interestign development. When i first started climbing (at Frog and in the GHouse mtns) we never rapped
down anything. You always walked down the back. These days there are rap chains, slings round trees
and fixed pitons.

stuart

24-Apr-2007
2:39:53 PM

> If someone writes something which I feel is retarded, that's what I'll say rather
> than "sorry old chap, I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you"

Why? What, exactly, is wrong with saying "I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you"? Is it that you wish to be perceived as a take-no-shizzle he-man, and that's how he-men roll?

If we're children squabbling in the schoolyard, then fine, name-call all you want. But if we're grown-ups having a discussion, and we want people to take the content of our posts - and by extension, us - seriously, then what harm can there be in keeping a civil tone?

Like or dislike someone's point of view, you weaken your own argument and diminish yourself immeasurably by resorting to name-calling.

(inset flame response here)


tnd

24-Apr-2007
2:43:17 PM

Well said Stuart

There are 83 messages in this topic.