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Memorials / Plaques

SirOinksALot

8-Nov-2006
5:35:21 PM

On 8/11/2006 gfdonc wrote:
>For example the Select guide mentions something about the scramble below
>the Flight Desk "having claimed at least one life" but I am unaware of
>details.
Non-climber/belayer female traving in from left, slipped at obvious spot and
tumbled down slab. Died a few days later in Melb. hosp. from head injuries sustained in fall. Early 90's.

Why would you want a list of deaths at arapiles posted on this site? This has been discussed before I think?


Zebedee

8-Nov-2006
8:07:42 PM

There should be no plaques attached to rocks to memoralise dead people that's what graveyards are for. Imagine this extended into other areas. For example on the front of houses " Bill Nobody drowned in bath. 1990" or on the back of ambulances or hospital intensive care wards. The idea is ridiculous and just because family are grieving doesn't mean that rational planning should be thrown to the winds. Chop 'em all I say. (Oh and mandatory top ropes to stop it happening again.)


Climboholic

8-Nov-2006
9:24:21 PM

Isn't a plaque on a cliff comparable to all those cross's and flowers you see on the side of the road where a fatal accident has occurred?

This isn't an argument to support putting up plaques. I'm opposed to both because they are both distracting and IMO an insufficient way of remembering the deceased.

I like the idea of central area to commemorate the climbers that have died doing the thing that they love. I believe this is common on most serious mountains, not just in NZ but in Europe and the Himalayas as well.

I don’t think it is morbid in any way and it would provide a peaceful place for loved one to reflect without being distracted by a climber using their plaque as a convenient hold.


tmarsh

8-Nov-2006
10:37:45 PM

On 8/11/2006 Climboholic wrote:
>Isn't a plaque on a cliff comparable to all those cross's and flowers you
>see on the side of the road where a fatal accident has occurred?

I think it's exactly the same, Climberholic. There seems to have been a shift in the last decade or so to commemorate the location of death as opposed to where the body has been laid to rest. I've pondered this a lot over the last few years - as roadside memorials are increasing in number - wondering if it means that people's attitude to death is shifting to a more secular and less religious view. Meaning that people are more interested in commemorating where actual death occurred rather than where religion tells us the shift from mortal to immortal occurs ie the graveyard.

It's a weird shift. And one that turns public space into private space. I'm not sure that there are any answers to it, but it's an interesting phenomenon.


dave h.

9-Nov-2006
2:10:44 AM

Not sure I buy your reasoning tmarsh... but it's too late for me to put another explanation forward (not that I have one)

But I do think that one advantage of having the plaque near the climb is that it makes the knowledge of the death much more immediate... I'd be more likely to be careful on a route if I saw a plaque on a boulder at the bottom saying "Mr X was killed here on z/1/02" or whatever.

That said I do understand people's concern for precedent, environmental damage, etc. Perhaps it's the family having a knee-jerk reaction. Perhaps it depends on whether we value the remembrance of the deceased over the environment. (Now that I've realised I'm saying obvious things, I'm going to retire & get some sleep).


Climboholic

9-Nov-2006
7:17:02 AM

Why is it necessary to make the knowledge of the death more immediate? Most of the deaths at Arapiles have happenened on low graded and well protected climbs. It has usually been an error by an individual that has caused a death, not a particularly dangerous climb.

I'm careful on every route because I know they all can kill me, not just the ones where accidents have occured before. Putting up a plaque at the bottom of a route just serves to disrupt a climbers concentration by making them more nervous hence more likely to have an accident.

estherrenita_

9-Nov-2006
8:00:17 AM

I don't think that flowers and crosses exist next to the road as a "sign" for drivers to be careful at this particular section of road.
I think it is about memorial /ritual /and mourning.
I’m living in Europe at the moment, and it strikes me that the tradition of having hand made gravestones and also a public holiday for visiting these grave sites is quite a different reality from Australia.
I think the “on site” memorial is more of a result of living in a less religious society (as tmarsh wrote).
I also think that the idea that the family/ friends are thinking of the climbing community is unlikely.
I’m not one to put an emphasis on the importance of objects in commemoration but I can imagine that a bench or some “useful” thing doesn’t really have the “Honor” of a plaque.

Having said this I am actually anti plaques and memorials in “native” areas. I’m not sure that I can justify this though.


tmarsh

9-Nov-2006
11:27:14 AM

On 9/11/2006 dave h. wrote:
>Not sure I buy your reasoning tmarsh... but it's too late for me to put
>another explanation forward (not that I have one)

Not sure I'm selling my reasoning, dave h. The idea that 'death markers' are somehow consistent with a shift to a more secular view of death is pure speculation on my part. I'm certainly not advancing it as the only reason people do this sort of thing.


oweng

9-Nov-2006
12:16:16 PM

Ive always thought that memorials to the dead on roadsides was more about the the people who are alive (subconciously) wanting a public audience for their grief.

Why only have a quiet gravestone tucked away in a cemetry, when you can have a memorial on a road that 1000's of people a day will pass by, thus keeping the memory of your loved one alive (and perhaps at the same time noting what a devoted loved one you are for building the memorial - placing flowers etc).

But then, perhaps im just an overly cynical person, who has been lucky enough (touch wood) to never have anyone close to me killed in a public place.

Memorials on climbs I really dont know about. Interestingly, I would probably love to find a 100 year old plaque high on some climb, I would probably consider it a wonderful peice of history. Then if I found a similar plaque freshly installed, i would probably consider is vandalism. Seems inconsistant.


cruze

9-Nov-2006
1:24:40 PM

At a place like Araps, a small grove tucked away in a private place (maybe even high in Central Gully) with a discreet plaque afixed to a small rock.


gremlin

9-Nov-2006
7:40:36 PM

I think naming a new route after the late climber is a much more fitting tribute.
A few examples from QLD; Vidlers Chimney, Clemency, The Simon Vos Memorial, David Mac...

If you want plaques or momuments put them in the nearest town not in a national park.


Eduardo Slabofvic

9-Nov-2006
8:06:17 PM

On 9/11/2006 gremlin wrote:
>I think naming a new route after the late climber is a much more fitting
>tribute.
>A few examples from QLD; Vidlers Chimney, Clemency, The Simon Vos Memorial,
>David Mac...
>
>If you want plaques or momuments put them in the nearest town not in a
>national park.

the Anti From


Eduardo Slabofvic

9-Nov-2006
8:31:41 PM

I recall another route in Italy where there were three lines of plaques, with two spces left over at the end
on the bottom row. They were still empty after I did the route, but........

GTempest

9-Nov-2006
9:37:47 PM

On 9/11/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>I recall another route in Italy where there were three lines of plaques,
>with two spces left over at the end
>on the bottom row. They were still empty after I did the route, but........

Interesting. I remember doing a route on the Tri Cima in the Italian Dolomites and before we set off we counted a dozen or so plaques bolted to the foot of the descent gully (presumably one for each climber who had died on the way down). Later that day we rappelled the gully in a nasty snowstorm and unfortunately discovered a climber’s body on a ledge. We soon learned that during the climbing season there are two vehicles on standby at the carpark. One is an ice cream vendor and the other an ambulance that ferries broken bodies to the nearby hospital. Both did a roaring trade. Which brings me to my point. At what point do people finally decide that there are too many plaques bolted to the foot of climbs (or on climbs!). It seems to me that the vast majority of climbers would never want to see a plaque dedicated to themselves placed on the rock for all to see. I'm pretty sure it is something non-climbing family and friends would perceive as the "right thing to do". It isn’t. I feel strongly that plaques have no place on the cliff. I don’t even like the one on the Plaque Area! If there is a need for remembrance then a memorial should be built (perhaps near the Pines – in the Fairy Circle or whatever) so that plaques can be affixed when required by grieving family and friends. Just don’t ever leave one for me. Glenn.


nmonteith

9-Nov-2006
9:48:35 PM

It's a fact. You will die eventaly. If everyone got a plaque on a cliff there wouldn't be much real rock left.


brat

9-Nov-2006
10:27:50 PM

I think that a bloody big plinth near the Shrine of Rememberance would be good! It can have dual use for a memorial AND bouldering!


Climboholic

10-Nov-2006
7:53:23 AM

On 9/11/2006 brat wrote:
>I think that a bloody big plinth near the Shrine of Rememberance would
>be good! It can have dual use for a memorial AND bouldering!

Hahahaha! Great Idea! A national climbers memorial near the War Memorial would be a conveniant place for me to boulder.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

10-Nov-2006
10:32:28 AM

What a morbid topic :(

I don't know that too many climbers think about memorialising their death.
When I croak I don't want any plaque etc. The closest link to climbing that I would want is to have my ashes scattered off a high cliff (on a non-windy day), when no-one else is about.

The 1st time I came across an insitu memorial to a climber, was the cross in memory of Barry Willis on the back of the First Sister in the Blue Mts.
Having just arrived at that point after doing West Wall & Skyline Traverse I found it a bit disconcerting. My partner at the time felt the same way, if not more so.
The guidebook I was using at the time reckons to use the cross as a belay, but I found it would have broken the pitch so I led on through, making light of the moment by using it as a hand/foothold enroute for the top, to defuse the seriousness of the moment.
This action helped my disconcerted partner, but I have always felt kind of guilty about it ever since, as it seems a bit spooky treading on memorials.

Other people don't need these things...
The relatives and freinds can celebrate the dead in their hearts and memories, and by the lives they live; as the experience is truly a personal one.


Richard

10-Nov-2006
1:19:24 PM

A single memorial at araps is the way to go. If i died on a climb a climb I would not want a plaque there advertising the fact - firstly, any family cannot travel to spot half way up a cliff to reflect .. secondly, I don't want the fact advertised to every climber going past, and thirdly, as a climber I don't want to told of such incidents while i am climbing.

Every climb is potetntilay dangerours because theses a chance of falling .. it's not like plaques warn us of a perticulary dangerous hold or move and are "safety beta".

On the road is different .. you wiz past and there gone again. Unless it was outside my house, them i'd rather not have signs there also...

ithomas

10-Nov-2006
1:24:00 PM

People get comfort from being in the place where friends and relatives have died: so long as it's not a jail cell, a back alley or a boarding house. Battle fields are full of memorials. Places of death such as the Kokoda Track, Tobruk, Poziers, Gallipoli are almost places of worship; often unfortunately to people who don't truly understand what happened there. Not many memorials to Koori deaths though. Windshuttle tried to stop that. The connections between death and place are understandable.

People love to spread ashes in favourite places, but I turned off that idea after the ashes of an aquaintence blew up my nose at a scattering ceremony. I didn't really like him but had family obligations. You know. Anyway, I finally snotted him. I like to wander city streets and read plaques about dead people. Nothing wrong with that. I also like good explanatory boards in places I visit. Sometimes though, the information is wrong and visual pollution is the result. I don't really like plaques on cliffs and in my estimation no one who ever died climbing, was doing what they loved. Death in climbing is usually an accident or a mistake. No love there, just searing regret and bowel tearing fear. No place for a memorial really. The pines were planted I think by Noddy's Grandfather. When they die that historical link will be gone. Unless perhaps there are re-plantings (of indigenous trees). The sigh of wind in the pines could easily be replicated by wind through groves of she-oaks. The Ballarat Memorial Drive is a living memorial. There is a good idea in that somewhere. Perhaps we could chop the plaques and replace them with trees? No names. Just trees.

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