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Todd Skinner - Dies on Leaning Tower Yosemite


nmonteith

27-Oct-2006
1:12:24 PM

I replace my harness every 2 years. I can visibly see it wearing away on the absiel loop.


AlanD

27-Oct-2006
1:15:32 PM

On 27/10/2006 cruze wrote:
>Don't caving/canyoning harnesses have a metal piece for connection of leg
>to waist loops? Might it have something to do with the strength of wet
>webbing?

Some may, but the Petzl Croll didn't. There was a metal ring on each half of the half of the harness that you did clip you biner (our in my case maillion). Where the rings were, the tape was also covered in a canvas like material, so you could detect when the rings were starting to wear the webbing and replace the harness. I'm trying to remember my brothers' harnesses and I can't remember exactly their configurations, but I can't remember any metal components except the the use of a biner.


gordoste

27-Oct-2006
1:45:36 PM

More info about the cause of the accident:

SF Chronicle


IdratherbeclimbingM9

27-Oct-2006
2:01:56 PM

Good link gordoste

Relevant extracts below;
>fell more than 500 feet to his death Monday after the nylon loop used to attach the climbing rope to his harness broke

>"It's really affecting the climbing community because harness failure is pretty unusual -- it is not supposed to happen," said Ken Yager, president and founder of Yosemite Climbing Association. "It's gotten people thinking about their old harnesses now. I know I'm going to go out and buy a new one."
>The part that broke, called the belay loop, is designed to be the strongest part of the climbing harness, but Hewett, 34, said Skinner's harness was old.
>"It was actually very worn," Hewett said. "I'd noted it a few days before, and he was aware it was something to be concerned about." Friends of Skinner said he had ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail.
>On Monday's climb, Hewitt said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an overhanging ledge.
>"I knew exactly what had happened right when it happened," he said. "It was just disbelief. It was too surreal."
>Stunned and in shock after watching his friend fall, he checked his equipment.
>"I wanted to make sure that what had caused the accident wasn't going to happen to me," he said. "I then went down as quick as I could."

It must have been terrible for his partner Jim Hewett.
I really feel for him as well as Todd's family.
Thinking of that scenario from either Jim's or Todd's perspective sends shivers up my spine.

Hanging under overhangs it is easy to shift weight such that the angle of loading can vary on load bearing portions of equipment in use. Like the girth hitch failure thread where;
Anthonyk wrote;
(snip)
>the reason why there is a strength reduction is because the force is being applied disproportionately on the sling, when the sling is bent more force is being taken on one side than on the other
(snip)
> if you have any amount of motion or bouncing, and especially if this is applied over an extended period of time at the same point, i think its not surprising that it can cause significant damage to the sling. its also a runaway process, once there is a slight amount of damage the load on the next point will be increased.
(snip)

It seems there is a good possibility that the loop was overstressed, this without the possibility of heat from rope running over slings etc.
This combined with age and wear, with no backup/s is a sad lesson to us all.


cruze

27-Oct-2006
3:01:23 PM

Sad stuff all this business. Makes me wonder though, of all the people that are going to back up their belay loops, do they back up their hands? I mean do they use a prussik back up (even if it is not 100% fail safe)? Do they insist on a fire-mans belay when coming down second? Just a thought. I have had a few instances rapping where I have had to fight the instinct to let go of the rope to stop a swing/drop/face-plant mid-abseil, and while it isn't the best/only solution I tend to always put a prussik below the abseil device attached to a leg loop. Might think about this in light of the belay loop failure. Might be an argument in favour of the above the device method.


cruze

27-Oct-2006
3:23:20 PM

..then again on long, free-hanging abseils (as I think was the case with Todd Skinner), using a prussik backup might present a few problems...


BigMike

27-Oct-2006
3:30:21 PM

On 27/10/2006 cruze wrote:
>I tend to always put a prussik below the
>abseil device attached to a leg loop.

Me too. It's great for hands-free situations, and for if you get clocked on the head by a falling rock etc and lose consciousness. And if your device failed, you'd find yourself hanging by your leg loop, not v comfortable but better than being on the deck...

some people have commented it looks a bit faffy but really it just takes a few secs...


cruze

27-Oct-2006
3:37:29 PM

Agree Big Mike. Only thing I would say is that I don't know about hanging by the leg loop. Maybe - but maybe not strong enough though. The leg loop method is based more on the premise that IF the prussik holds/catches on the rope in the event of your hand leaving the rope then your entire leg would have to pass through the device before you fell. The "above-the-device" method is a bona fide second point of safety (again assuming that the prussik holds/catches). Good reason to focus on a neat tight prussik knot - I use a Klemheist but am not sure which would be the best in this regard.


manacubus

27-Oct-2006
4:32:31 PM

Putting a prussik above the device causes more problems than it prevents, by locking up and leaving people stranded. A short autoblock attached to the legloop is a better solution.


BigMike

27-Oct-2006
4:48:35 PM

I see the leg loop backup as overwhelmingly in case of getting clocked by a rock, losing grip on the rope, etc .. all likely occurrences ... and only minutely in case of abseil device/attachment failure, which almost never happens ... poor Todd excluded.

Other good thing about leg loop linkup is that said knot (yes I also use a klemheist) only has to take the weight that your hand normally takes. If knot is above device, it has to take full load of your bod. And it tends to lock up, as Manacubus correctly observes...

Duncan

28-Oct-2006
7:47:46 PM

http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php

Interesting to see that even a belay loop that has been cut 90% of the way through broke at 777lbf (about 300kg?). An interesting quote:

>"It (his harness) was actually very worn," Hewett said. "I'd noted it a few days before, and he >was aware it was something to be concerned about." Friends of Skinner said he had >ordered several new harnesses but they hadn't yet arrived in the mail...On Monday's climb, >Hewett said the belay loop snapped while Skinner was hanging in midair underneath an >overhanging ledge. "I knew exactly what had happened right when it happened," he said. "It >was just disbelief. It was too surreal." Stunned and in shock after watching his friend fall, he >checked his equipment. "I wanted to make sure that what had caused the accident wasn't >going to happen to me," he said. "I then went down as quick as I could." Hewett said he >knew there was no hope. A search-and-rescue team found Skinner's body, wearing the >harness with the broken belay loop, about 4 p.m. Monday on the rocks near Bridalveil Fall. >He was pronounced dead at the scene.

The Keeper

29-Oct-2006
9:52:12 AM

There has been a very good discussion on the wear & tear, attributes and failure of belay loops, harnesses, ropes, slings etc on Supertopos - a parallel thread to the Todd Skinner one.

One has to keep some perspective in this - this is an extremely rare case given the person hours of climbing that is characteristic of this planet in a given period of time.
More people die from not wearing a helmet or rapping off the ends of their rope. In climbing, little things lead to big consequences.
Skinner was putting in a lot of hard mileage on his gear - the belay loop was clearly problematic and he was aware enough of the situation to have ordered a new harness.
The message to be taken from this is to stay in touch with your gear - regularly check it out for viability with more checks if one is climbing more and replace it appropriately.
If you don't respect the realities inherent in the gear (made by humans and used by humans = less than perfection) then it will come back to bite you.

Redundancy and backups - all the time = smart climbing. An autoblock is a wise investment and a cheap one. They definitely slow down a rap but unless a escaping lightning or something is forcing you to move fast - what's the rush - the rock is not going anywhere. I prefer the autoblock below the belay device as there is less chance of it getting fouled in the belay device and I like it controlled by the lower hand. I usually carry a spare belay device and an extra autoblock cord - just in case- extra weight doesn't amount to much and it just might turn out to be useful at some point.

I recall Bob Gaines examining my Trango harness in some detail at Joshua Tree and commenting on bar tacking etc. - being a relative newbie , I didn't appreciate much of what he was talking about then but the Supertopos discussion has certainly enlightened me.
I think it is a good idea to not only just "use" climbing gear but to take some time to more fully "understand" it - it is time well spent.

Climbing has certainly moved towards a trajectory of "light and fast" and whilst there are plenty of upsides on that - there are also significant downsides - the safety margin shrinks and negative consequences comes home to roost more often. It amplifies the effects of small mistakes that otherwise might have less problematic consequences.

Todd Skinner was a top bloke and it is such a sad outcome for his family and the climbing community worldwide. As the Supertopos memorial thread reflects - he mattered - because above all else he was kind.

cragrat

1-Nov-2006
4:59:43 PM

If you are going to use this set up ( I am a above the device person) the method of use advocated in the UK is to extend the belay device with a sling off the belay loop (say 30cm) and attach the french prussick on the rope below it to the belay loop. This is way stronger than off a leg loop and will never ride up into the ATC.

I have seen a leg loop that wasn't buckled come undone. The only thing that stopped the young fella plummeting to his doom was the prussick wedged into his ATC. It was on the leg loop that came undone.

The other thing they found in teh UK was that an unconscious person would hang upside down and the hip with the attached prussick off the leg loop would get into a position where it could release by contact with the ATC.

Try rapping with wet double ropes on a less than vertical route with a prussick below !! Admittedly it has a place and for me its free hanging raps. If you are going to pass a knot you might as well have it above as well and it is also harder to rap off the end of your rope.

The Keeper

2-Nov-2006
5:31:58 PM

Hmm, a leg loop coming undone?! What was he thinking/doing? I never undo mine ever - and my pre-climb safety checks ensure they are doubled back.

There has been some discussion of the holding effectiveness of a prussick - that it is not 100% guaranteed - I wonder if there are some drop tests comparing two, three or four wraps around the rope - the idea being that less wraps equal less friction(stopping power) and more wraps increasing friction etc. 2 wraps always strikes me as being extremely dubious and I do three minumum.New versus worn rope and prussick cord also a factor. Hmm, wet ropes - can't say I have tried that one - so far my experience has been dry - wet would probably lead me to an above device prussick - I do like the notion you mention of an extra back-up against rapping off the end of a rope - I can think of better ways to make a departure from this life.

The idea of using some webbing around the waist for a chalk bag hang versus the usual non-load bearing stuff most people use - sounds to me like a really good idea against any possible harness failure - probably would put a serious kink in the body but at least you would be alive!

cragrat

2-Nov-2006
7:54:55 PM

Horses for courses. I don't use any one method. Most of the time I don't use any at all. And when i do just what seems appropriate.


BigMike

2-Nov-2006
8:07:50 PM

On 2/11/2006 The Keeper wrote:

>The idea of using some webbing around the waist for a chalk bag hang versus
>the usual non-load bearing stuff most people use - sounds to me like a
>really good idea against any possible harness failure - probably would
>put a serious kink in the body but at least you would be alive!

And better yet, you'd have four kidneys instead of two!!

pisces

2-Nov-2006
9:06:23 PM

And better yet, you'd have four kidneys instead of two!!
Renoquadricity eh? You could belay off Henle's loop (physiology joke!)
I was discussing this interesting harness question with a porsche-racing mate. He says that in the motor racing game body harness webbing is stamped with a five year expiry date after which it must be retired. This followed testing on fatigue and wear due to multiple low level strain. This of course is without the added effect of ultraviolet exposure, and with less sharp loading points. Interesting point of reference.

As for Todd, I am affected by his death. I knew him a little, from my first year of climbing, which I learnt in Yosemite in 1985. I belayed him on whatever new hardest route he was working on at the time. I thought him a little arrogant, but we all were at that age and I was probably just envious of his amazing talent. I still remember the seam he was climbing- it looked like it was good only for fingernails. I am sometimes accused of having a death wish because of my climbing. Nonsense- it is a life wish we climbers have- the more intense the better. Todd did it well.

gravitychaser

3-Nov-2006
10:49:12 AM

And in the industrial safety at height industry, Australian Standards state that an industrial harness must be inspected by a competent person at six monthly intervals and retired after ten years from the date of manufacture.

I'm not sure what manufacturers say is the design life of their harnesses. Three years (for example) would seem to be too short and have the manufacturers attempting to profit too much, but ten years seems reasonable.

Jason.


tnd

3-Nov-2006
11:19:59 AM

On 2/11/2006 The Keeper wrote:
>...I wonder if there are some drop tests
>comparing two, three or four wraps around the rope

There is a link to exactly such a study somewhere on Chockstone...the study was in Qld I think.


tnd

3-Nov-2006
11:22:07 AM

On 3/11/2006 gravitychaser wrote:
>...I'm not sure what manufacturers say is the design life of their harnesses....

The information with my Arcteryx harness states that it should be retired after five years.

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