Chockstone Forum

      Sponsored By
      ROCK
   HARDWARE

Chockstone Photography

Australian Landscape Prints

Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

Author

Todd Skinner - Dies on Leaning Tower Yosemite


anthonyk

26-Oct-2006
3:06:47 PM

On 26/10/2006 Richard wrote:
>My limited experince has been that this loads the harness in an awkard
>manner (due to the 3-direction loading), as the load of your weight while
>abseiling is distributed on to the leg loops too much. And not being comfortable
>while abseiling can be distracting and a contributer to acidents. So I
>have relied entirely on the belay loop. But this event puts a new perspective
>on the issue.

i think its mainly a question of how much wear its taken. when its new these things are rated with plenty of margin for error, but over time the strength is reduced through age and abrasion. it'd probably be easier if there was an obvious point when its gone too far, but still has a bit of life left to keep you safe till you get a new one.

kind of similar idea with kernmantel ropes, they will still wear out, but once you go through the sheath its pretty obvious that is gone too far, but the core will still generally keep you alive (touch wood). no one climbs on a rope once the sheath has gone through, but on a belay loop there's no obvious point like that.

some harnesses (petzl?) have an idea like that, with two independant but bound belay loops of different colour, once one gets shot it should be pretty noticeable. having two separate loops causes problems because they rub against each other causing faster wear.

jonorock

26-Oct-2006
3:20:38 PM

2 days ago I noticed on my BD harness that the protective sheath of material that protects the leg loops from carabiner wear had ripped and was worn heavily. On closer inspection the stiching is coming to pieces meaning that the join connecting the 2 leg loops could come apart. I always assumed the leg loops were one continous piece of webbing. Apparently not the case.On the supertopo forum someone has had this happen to them with the waist loop ending up around there shoulders.

I have never trusted the belay loop on its own. I think I will now start to use it with another short piece of tape tied off.

rod

26-Oct-2006
4:56:41 PM

Niel's comment got me thinking, I've got a petzl harness and have always ignored the belay loop altogether, tying into the leg and waist loops that the belay loop uses...but when I belay someone I'm obliged to use the loop. Niel, Do you back up the belay loop when belaying?


Hardware

26-Oct-2006
5:55:19 PM

Same here Rod,
I too use the leg and waist loops and opt for the loop as a safety only when needed.!
Still tragic news for the world climbing community.


nmonteith

26-Oct-2006
5:58:14 PM

On 26/10/2006 rod wrote:
>Niel, Do you back up the belay loop when belaying?

I clip into both the harness belay loop - and my backup loop (6mm prussic cord threaded between legs
loops and waistband)


AlanD

26-Oct-2006
6:43:11 PM

There is some logic behind the design of the Petzl Croll caving harnesses (no longer made), where the tape used for one leg loop also forms half the waist loop. By combining the two halves with a karabiner you form a complete harness. But in a failure situation, one half would be sufficient to get out of trouble.


BigMike

26-Oct-2006
6:56:23 PM

On 26/10/2006 rod wrote:
but when I belay someone I'm obliged to use the loop.

Why obliged? If you get a nice big pear-shaped locking biner, you can run it through both loops as well. This also serves to keep the gates of the belay device horizontal ... which means the rope is far more likely to "catch" in the right part of the device when you arrest a fall etc.

Also it stops the biner flapping around and cross-loading while the rope gets hung up on the lock mechanism etc, which often happens.

I've had a few animated discussions about people who suggest that this imparts a three-way load on the biner .. but seriously, them pear-shaped numbers are so wide on the big end that the harness loops tend to just smoosh into the one end. Hardly a true cross-load.

Besides even a cross-loaded biner will take 10kN...


Sabu

26-Oct-2006
8:30:29 PM

On 26/10/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>I clip into both the harness belay loop - and my backup loop (6mm prussic
>cord threaded between legs
>loops and waistband)

Good idea, i might do that too...

BTW is it clear on which part of the harness failed yet?


brat

26-Oct-2006
8:53:25 PM

I worked for a climbing harness manufacturer and it was often quoted that the belay loop had a higher rating than most biners climbers used to tie in, don't let the flexibility of the loop fool you!

I switched from that harness manufacturer to another because all the loops were the same colour, I nearly hooked into the wrong loop when tieing off to rap, because of my stance at the anchor I couldn't view my loops clearly, I've also nearly done it through fatigue, I'm wondering if this has happened!

simey

26-Oct-2006
10:59:12 PM

On 26/10/2006 brat wrote:
>I switched from that harness manufacturer to another because all the loops were the same colour, I nearly hooked into the wrong loop when tieing off to rap, because of my stance at the anchor I couldn't view my loops clearly, I've also nearly done it through fatigue, I'm wondering if this has happened!

Good points Brat. There could be any number of scenarios that have led to Todd's accident. I'm surprised that everyone is talking about belay loops breaking, when that is yet to be confirmed. I find it really hard to fathom a belay loop failing. I reckon there has got to be some other element in the equation.


BigMike

26-Oct-2006
11:02:04 PM

my guess, he didn't clip into the device properly...


muki

27-Oct-2006
9:30:25 AM

How is this a possible scenario when the belay loop was missing from the harness, is the fact that todd
was discusing the wear and tear of his harness with his partner just prior to the accident not a possible
clue as to what happened up there that day, RIP todd the bomb


Breezy

27-Oct-2006
10:05:06 AM

On 26/10/2006 simey wrote:
>I'm surprised that everyone is talking about belay
>loops breaking, when that is yet to be confirmed. I find it really hard
>to fathom a belay loop failing. I reckon there has got to be some other
>element in the equation.

There was no belya loop on the harness when they found him, kinda suggests it broke, no ?


anthonyk

27-Oct-2006
10:35:16 AM

On 26/10/2006 BigMike wrote:
>On 26/10/2006 rod wrote:
>Why obliged? If you get a nice big pear-shaped locking biner, you can
>run it through both loops as well. This also serves to keep the gates of
>the belay device horizontal ... which means the rope is far more likely
>to "catch" in the right part of the device when you arrest a fall etc.
>
>Also it stops the biner flapping around and cross-loading while the rope
>gets hung up on the lock mechanism etc, which often happens.
>
>I've had a few animated discussions about people who suggest that this
>imparts a three-way load on the biner .. but seriously, them pear-shaped
>numbers are so wide on the big end that the harness loops tend to just
>smoosh into the one end. Hardly a true cross-load.

the thing i don't like about putting a biner through the two loops vertically is you have to put the big end on the harness, so you are belaying off the little end which doesn't work all that smoothly with an ATC from my experience, the biner is small enough to fit inside the tube so it doesn't catch the rope as well & doesn't feed as smoothly or something like that. an oval might be better


Eduardo Slabofvic

27-Oct-2006
10:38:07 AM

On 26/10/2006 BigMike wrote:
>I've had a few animated discussions about people who suggest that this
>imparts a three-way load on the biner .. but seriously, them pear-shaped
>numbers are so wide on the big end that the harness loops tend to just
>smoosh into the one end. Hardly a true cross-load.
>
>Besides even a cross-loaded biner will take 10kN...
>
This might be a little out of left field, but I have a bunch of these Steel Bow Shackles that can be loaded
in any number of directions, as they are round. They would have their limitations, as you would have to
screw the pin in to lock them, and really they should have a cable tie through the pin to ensure it doesn’t
undo, but the idea is there. A gear manufacturer could design and market a purpose designed “Belay
Biner” using this principle.

Remember you heard it here first folks. I’ll just take a small percentage from the millions of sales that no
doubt going to happen next.


HM33

27-Oct-2006
10:47:49 AM

>...but I have a bunch of these
>Steel Bow Shackles that can be loaded
>in any number of directions, as they are round.
>.... A gear manufacturer could design and market
>a purpose designed “Belay
>Biner” using this principle.

A Maillion would be much better than a bow shackle. the D maillions are designed for 3 way loading and would fit the harness quite easily


IdratherbeclimbingM9

27-Oct-2006
11:05:11 AM

Breezy wrote;
>There was no belya loop on the harness when they found him, kinda suggests it broke, no ?

Not necessarily.
My BD 'alpine bod' harness does not have a belay loop.
That is how I bought it, though I don't know if that is still the case with newer models.

nm wrote;
>Good advice. I have a permanently fixed backup to my belay loop.
Rod wrote;
>Do you back up the belay loop when belaying?

I clip the legloops and waistloop of the harness together with a large 'D' krab. The very first thing I did was to tie in a spectra cord loop as a backup to this dedicated krab. This loop matches exactly the size of the krab. Both remain permanently on the harness.

I connect my belay/abseil device with it's own dedicated krab into both the above mentioned krab/spectra loop combo.
I have not had any problems with three way loading and the redundancy is always there.
During abseils I (usually) backup the brake hand with a prussic connected to the legloop.
From this end of the gear involvement, my harness would have to fail in several places simultaneously for an abseil to go pear shaped.


cruze

27-Oct-2006
11:08:42 AM

Don't caving/canyoning harnesses have a metal piece for connection of leg to waist loops? Might it have something to do with the strength of wet webbing?


tmarsh

27-Oct-2006
12:41:47 PM

Surely the lesson here is not trying to invent new ways to back up a harness, but to inspect your gear regularly and throw it out if it is worn. Harnesses cop a lot of wear and tear and people expect them to last forever.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

27-Oct-2006
12:59:09 PM

An attempt at levity in an otherwise serious thread.

On 27/10/2006 tmarsh wrote:
>Surely the lesson here is not trying to invent new ways to back up a harness,
>but to inspect your gear regularly and throw it out if it is worn. Harnesses
>cop a lot of wear and tear and people expect them to last forever.

You knocking my old (still used occasionally) Whillans harness ?
...dem's fightin words tm.
(Heh, heh, heh).

There are 63 messages in this topic.