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General Climbing Discussion

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BigMike

6-Oct-2006
3:17:54 PM

Whew, that's some karmic debt you're carrying, VWills!

As for your ranger, it's amazing how convincing an argument can be when it supports something you want to do in the first place...

:-)

SirOinksALot

6-Oct-2006
3:21:34 PM

On 3/10/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>
>If you are talking about climbing areas being banned because of dickheads
>stuffing it up for others then
>there is plenty! Shady Buttress and Western Wall in Queensland come to
>mind. These were major areas
>in the early 90s but have been permanatly banned because climbers couldn't
>behave themselves and the
>(private) landowner shut up shop - for good.

Bollocks! Firstly Shady and western wall saw activity in the mid to late '80s. Climbing had been band there by the '90s. Don't know what myths you were told but climbing was band due to the increase of weekend traffic from Brisbane and the farmer valued his privacy. Dinosour went the same way.

Probably a good thing as most people would be demanding the routes be retrobolted in the name of safety.


BigMike

6-Oct-2006
3:33:31 PM

Maybe you two are talking about the same thing?

I wonder if the increase in traffic would have been a problem if the climbers had behaved themselves.

(One man's myth is another man's speech impediment...)


nmonteith

6-Oct-2006
3:37:42 PM

On 6/10/2006 SirOinksALot wrote:
>Bollocks! Firstly Shady and western wall saw activity in the mid to late
>'80s. Climbing had been band there by the '90s. Don't know what myths you
>were told but climbing was band due to the increase of weekend traffic
>from Brisbane and the farmer valued his privacy. Dinosour went the same
>way.

The stories i was told were of people (form interstate) knocking on the farmers door at 3am looking for
directions to the crag, then breaking into the old town hall and stealing the chairs from it and dragging
it up to the crag. Then there was the whole sorry situation of the open gate, escaped cows and the
shot cow. It was a lot more than just privacy i believe. This could all be chinese whispers 'casu eit was
all before my time! I had run-ins with the same farmers a few years later (1992). They didn't seem at
all friendy to climbers and yelled and screamed even though all i had done was park next to their farm
and jump their fence to look at a boulder 5m from the road.. Something bad must have happened to
piss them off so much as they prompty then closed the access to Maroon for a few months as punishent
for my tresspass. You can
actually still climb at dinosaur if you know the right people to talk to.


tnd

6-Oct-2006
3:46:38 PM

On 6/10/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>...knocking on the
>farmers door at 3am looking for
>directions to the crag, then breaking into the old town hall and stealing
>the chairs from it and dragging
>it up to the crag. Then there was the whole sorry situation of the open
>gate, escaped cows and the
>shot cow.

There are plenty of climbers around who behave like the above. That's why I cringe when I hear certain climbers complaining about "loudmouth gawking tourists". Climbers are just tourists of a different kind. We can't claim superiority because we choose to crawl around on a piece of rock.


Eduardo Slabofvic

6-Oct-2006
4:30:20 PM

Western Wall was closed due to the farmer building his new house on top of the path to the crag, and he
didn't want to have to look at and listen to people climbing in his back yard. A big shame, as it was a top
place on sunny winters day.

Much has been said about the behaviours of a few individuals at the time, but was said by people who did
not witness the “alleged” behaviour. Needless to say, the Chinese whispers didn’t let facts get in the way
of a good story. Having climbed with the alleged guilty parties for over 20 years, I am of the opinion that
the “alleged” behaviour did not occur.

The farmer was a prickly fellow, even when we were getting on well with him.

Keep in mind it was the 1980’s and climbing fashion of the day was (and still is for some of us) lycra, and
we are talking about the general area that gave rise to the One Nation Party. So it’s not too hard to see
that there was a clash of culture. Some of you may remember what Nati used to be like then, fights in the
pub, local boys doing circle work in the pines, etc etc etc…..ooooh how I miss climbing in the 80’s. DK’s
up loud, too much cheap booze, no camping fees (sniff sniff, boo hoo).

Shady was closed after the open gate incident, which I blame on rock publishing a guide book to the
place, next thing you know people were going there instead of Frog. Gates should always be closed
behind you.

Shady is not closed however, as there is legal access to the crags which are on crown land via a gazetted
road. Qlders should do a bit of research in the Titles Office then go to work on the Public Land Managers.

6-Oct-2006
4:33:18 PM

On 6/10/2006 tnd wrote:

>There are plenty of climbers around who behave like the above. That's
>why I cringe when I hear certain climbers complaining about "loudmouth
>gawking tourists". Climbers are just tourists of a different kind. We can't
>claim superiority because we choose to crawl around on a piece of rock.

Must remember this line "climbers are just tourists of a different kind", it sums it up pretty well I reckon. Although I doubt many will agree.

dalai

6-Oct-2006
4:34:17 PM

On 6/10/2006 Eduardo Slabofvic wrote:
>Shady was closed after the open gate incident, which I blame on rock publishing
>a guide book to the place.

Wasn't it the now defunct (like so many Australian climbing magazines since) Australian Rockclimber?


nmonteith

6-Oct-2006
4:36:53 PM

Thanks for clearing that up Eduardo! I certainly don't know of anyone who has climbed at Shady in the
last 15 years. Surely someone would have sussed this access out if it is as easy as you say? The ol'
Rock guide does make it sound pretty good!

drdeviousii

6-Oct-2006
5:01:40 PM

*certain* people still climb at Western Wall & Shady Butress. Also at Minto crags (think you're getting confused between Minto & Dinosaur nmonteith).

People have looked at trying to gain access to the gazetted easements - these exist into many closed Qld crags). No luck so far - its (perhaps not suprisingly) a struggle to get rockclimbing access on top of land managers 'to do' lists.

The Keeper

6-Oct-2006
5:13:37 PM

I haven't been to Uluru yet but when I do I won't be climbing it out of respect for the local indigenous owners. It is a matter of RESPECT - frankly given all the rock on the planet , my modest capabilities and the amount of petrol left in the tank - I won't be climbing it all anyway. A few restricted places is no big deal really. An all or nothing perspective is a poor strategy and frankly climbers do not carry a lot of political weight in the scheme of things - winning a battle but losing the war is a pretty feeble result.
Check out some of the debate on Dean Potter's little irresponsible climb on Delicate Arches - many other climbers are going to suffer negative consequences for his ill-conceived little gambit for climbing marketing and press purposes. We do not live in a vacuum and our actions impact on others. Frankly, it would be better to respect local indigenous values and work together with them and I suspect the benefits would dramatically outweigh the minor losses. Life is a series of compromises of interests and the smart ones play for the big picture rather than put all their bet on one thin horse. Devil's Tower is such a compromise - climbers can use it but there are restricted periods for the local indigenous people to undertake their sacred ceremonies and utilization of the site. Extremists on either end of the ledger have lost to a middle ground where reasonable people hang out.

The Uluru situation is of interest to me because I come to the discussion as an archaeologist and cultural heritage manager but also as a late-age rock climber - and the interesection of the two is something I spend time thinking about. I climb in the Canadian Rockies near Canmore and places such as Grotto Canyon and Grassi Lakes
have pictographs (images painted on the rock - as distinct from petroglyphs where the images are actually incised into it). Both locations are heavily used sport climbing locales. At Grassi, there is a big boulder with pictoglyphs and the local climbing community as part of their excellent work at the site (deluxe access stairs and belay stations!) have put a chain fence around the large boulder in the middle of the site which has some pictoglyphs on it and added an interp sign). On the other hand I once took in a presentation at an archaeology conference in Banff where a lad was demonstrating some innovative methods to bring out faded and unobservable pictoglyphs so they could be photographed - using multi- lenses , filters & light sourcesetc. One of his pics was of the Okotoks Erractic - a mother of a boulder transported across western Canada by continental glaciers and dumped on the bald headed prairie south of Calgary. It is a favoured bouldering rock and the photo he used showed a mob of Brits with ropes all over the thing and many intersecting inappropriately with the pictographs on the rock.
In this case it was probably lack of awareness and thinking about their actions - they may not have been aware of the pictographs at all. So there is a real need for the climbing community to be connected with local indigenous communities and cultural managers to reduce the potential negative aspects of the activity and to maximize benefits to all. A "manifest climbing destiny" attitude will ultimately strangle the activity we all cherish. You sometimes have to give up a bit to get more and that is not such a big deal. Frankly, it has nothing to do with being right or in otherwards saying that the rock has been there for a few million years before any humans ever saw it and therefore that somehow yields a ticket to ride. Not much satisfaction on being right and being in a train wreck, eh?!

The only other points I would make is that most climbers are totally responsible and many I would commit to being the most rabid conservationists on the planet. Every year the US Access society raises funds, acquires lands threatened by develop and often adds them to national or state parks. On the other hand there are a lot of conservationists who are not climbers, and frankly couldn't give a piper's damn whether any climbers climbed any rock, anytime. Those types are not necessarily our friends!
One of our local notables has gone so far as to say that there should be lots of area that no humans are ever allowed to enter - period . Pretty mindnumbing stuff. Especially when these blokes usually attempt to co-opt indigenous folks to their game but I can tell you that position is not one that Indigenous folks subscribe to here - they
want wise and thoughtful management and sustainable utilization of the landscape .They do not talk about putting it on a museum shelf which would certainly be a death warrant for the real estate and living organisms within it.


nmonteith

6-Oct-2006
5:14:44 PM

In the late 90s i certainly remember being shown photos of DarrinC, Guy or Saul (or someone like that) at
Dinosaur Rocks. They were even doing new routes.


Eduardo Slabofvic

7-Oct-2006
9:42:40 AM

On 6/10/2006 drdeviousii wrote:
>*certain* people still climb at Western Wall & Shady Butress. Also at
>Minto crags (think you're getting confused between Minto & Dinosaur nmonteith).
>
>People have looked at trying to gain access to the gazetted easements
>- these exist into many closed Qld crags). No luck so far - its (perhaps
>not suprisingly) a struggle to get rockclimbing access on top of land managers
>'to do' lists.

Yes, "certain " people actually own the acces to some of these crags, but lets not be bitter.

The gazetted road up to shady continues straight up from the start of the track. It is definitely not easy,
it's a total bush bash, and it takes you the long way to the Northern Front (I think that's where it goes).

There are 53 messages in this topic.