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scary self detaching bolt plates

jjobrien

21-Apr-2006
2:40:22 PM

Not only is there a difference in shaft size eg: 10mm and 3/8inch but they can have very different head sizes as well.
I use 10mmm bolt that have a 17mm head on them, when prerparing them I have to round the edges off a little just to be able to get the bolt plate over it.
But the old 3/8 bolts, (at least the ones at my local crag Tinbeerwah,SEQ) have about a 14mm or equivalent head size! Very different story.

maxdacat

21-Apr-2006
6:50:26 PM

On 21/04/2006 jjobrien wrote:
>Not only is there a difference in shaft size eg.......but they
>can have very different head sizes as well.

sorry what are we talking about ;)

jjobrien

21-Apr-2006
8:13:55 PM

Dicks. Keep up will ya.

robin

21-Apr-2006
8:48:45 PM

Hi Jac,
I use all types of bolts and I think that all bolts have there place. I don't agree that glue in rings are the most appropriate bolt for all situations, although this is my preferred bolt type.
>I still don't understand why people are still placing carrots and expansion
>bolts (each of which involve the concept of hangers).
I think you'll find there are many good reasons to place glue in machine bolts rather than a ring bolt.
1. glue in rings are ugly. You can attempt to camofage them but the glue in carrot is less obtrusive.
2. cost - glue in carrots are cheaper and quicker to place than ring bolts. Also, less drilling = less battery power and (slightly) less damage to the rock.
3. tradition - particularly on a mixed trad route a carrot adds character.

>A few annoying things
>about hangers include:
>
>• It is very annoying how the small cross section on the hanger munches
>into your biners during falls.
May be an issue on sports routes where you take many falls but on non-sports routes not an issue . I've taken many repeated 4-5m falls on a single carrot bolt (new route) with no effect on biner, hanger or bolt.
>• You cannot evacuate mid-route as easily as you can on ring bolts.
Again, not an issue on a trad route. If you have to evacuate off gear it will be a lot more expensive, and more dangerous than off a hanger.
>• It's a nuisance for people visiting from interstate/overseas to have
>to carry bolt plates for carrot routes. More gear = more weight = problems
>at the airport.
Again, if overseas visitors are planning on climbing trad/mixed then they'll need gear anyway. A few bolt plates wont add much weight. Also can always use wires to clip over the bolts.
>• Maybe we've got an imperial vs metric vs fancy new skinny biners issue
>as well.
Agree. Why don't we just stick to imperial which is what most if not all the original carrots are. Some of my hangers just do not fit over metric.
>
>All of the above-mentioned issues would be avoided if we were just placing
>glue-in rings…
Maybe for sports routes, but for other styles of climbing I think the glue in machine bolt has it's place.

mockmockmock

21-Apr-2006
10:43:36 PM

climbing a few places of late.. I have both 45 and 90 plates, I'll nearly always try to use the 45's first because I have found a few times the 45's won't fit but a 90 will. that is qualified by if it's really sketchy I'll just grab the 90 and go. I have had a 45 that need to be bashed with the heel of my hand to get it on...

Ralph

sydneymatt

24-Apr-2006
10:21:26 AM

Just smash the heads of the bolts with a large hammer and flatten the heads out a bit. Should make the plates a bit harder to get off....and on...hehe

mikl law

24-Apr-2006
12:13:54 PM

If I'm scared (and I often am ) I put a second biner through the big hole in the plate. I also have a chunky screwgate for clipping first bolts (and U's too).

Carrots are not a great solution to the whole death issue, but they are cheap (the 9 pitch Bunny Bucket Buttress cost about $22), they are unobtrusive (and sometimes are impossible to find), they are a good form of pro on adventure routes where you need to hand-drill (about 6 minutes in most blueys sandstone). They really are crap in hard rock though.


anthonyk

24-Apr-2006
2:24:03 PM

for sure

they have their role but i think its worth ppl being aware of their possible limitations if there are some, & use judgement instead of just assuming fixed pro == bombproof like you usually do.

climbingjac

24-Apr-2006
3:49:17 PM

Hi Robin,

Understand your comments, but I think sport climbing should be considered in the argument too, as it is rapidly becoming a big part of this sport.

Cheers matie

jac


rodw

24-Apr-2006
3:54:01 PM

On 24/04/2006 mikl law wrote:
>hand-drill (about 6 minutes in most
>blueys sandstone).

Okay I gotta ask Mike, how deep are those babies going in? I used to take me 6 -10 minutes with my old petrol NON- hammer drill to whack rings bolts in with 12mm 13cm deep hole and I was always guessing handrilling would at least take 4 times as long

kieranl

24-Apr-2006
8:12:48 PM

On 21/04/2006 climbingjac wrote:
>I still don't understand why people are still placing carrots and expansion
>bolts (each of which involve the concept of hangers).
>All of the above-mentioned issues would be avoided if we were just placing
>glue-in rings…
>
Jacqui,
My problem with rings is that we really don't have an answer for when they wear out, and they will. We are already having to take remedial action with ring and u abseil anchors by putting on shackles etc (should have been on in the first place).
The load-bearing part of the ring will eventually wear out and then the ring will have to be extracted with a lot of rock-damage. A lot of rings will last a very long time but we are already seeing wear on the high-use ones.
I prefer to place expansion bolts where the rock is OK and I would place a glue-in carrot if a hanger was visually unacceptable. For the new rap-anchor at the top of Trident I used fully-threaded 10mm bolts glued with a Fixe chain. Ultimately, when the bolts or hangers need replacing, the bolts can be screwed out of their holes and the holes re-drilled.
I appreciate the convenience of rings for sport-climbing (and for bumblies like me!) but the replacement issue really needs to be solved before I would say that rings are the way to go. As to the cost of munched krabs - small price to pay.
cheers
Kieran

rod

25-Apr-2006
3:26:48 AM

just out of interest kieranl, are there particular grade ranges where you are seeing the high usage wear occurring on rings?


wombly

25-Apr-2006
12:49:46 PM

my (limited) experience when hand drilling in sydney sandstone is that assuming the rock isn't uber hard, you can quite easily drill a 2 inch deep, 8 mm hole for a carrot in 5-10 mins. A 3 inch deep, 12 mm hole for a glue in takes a little longer, but certainly not more than 15 mins.

wyt91t

25-Apr-2006
11:21:50 PM

go the rings


nmonteith

26-Apr-2006
12:06:16 AM

Had a hanger/quickdraw fall off bolt 1 of Ruddy Norry @ the Glen today. Thats one route that needs
rings!

rod

26-Apr-2006
3:42:44 AM

sounds like a real ring opener

mikl law

26-Apr-2006
7:40:16 AM

Kieran wrote
>My problem with rings is that we really don't have an answer for when they wear out, and they will. We are already having to take remedial action with ring and u abseil anchors by putting on shackles etc (should have been on in the first place).>

What wear are you seeing on rings apart from lowering off top anchors? The most fallen-on ring in the mountains (protects the start dyno on Trix Roughley) is still looking good, though rock wear needed some attention. Aluminium biners on hard stainaless steel won't give too much wear, though grit filled ropes work a treat.
Mikl


climbau

26-Apr-2006
8:25:11 AM

On 26/04/2006 nmonteith wrote:
>Had a hanger/quickdraw fall off bolt 1 of Ruddy Norry @ the Glen today.
>Thats one route that needs
>rings!
It's amazing how times change. This route was rebolted with carrots, and at the time there was no issue (apart from The Glen being a pure sport crag and a climb gets rebolted with SSGI's?!). I climbed this route quite regularly with various bolt plate and carabiner combos and never had an issue. Maybe the whole smaller, lighter, faster direction that climbing is taking is outpacing the fixed pro (i.e the SSGI's). Are we going to have to carry several size plates on routes or does the climb description now have to state the bolt shaft/head sizes used?? Most likely there has to be a standardised bolt size to use, as it seems that new routers are just using what ever is cheapest/easiest to get hold of (which is understandable). And climbers need to have their Sport QD's and their Trad/Mixed QD's

kieranl

27-Apr-2006
9:57:33 PM

On 26/04/2006 mikl law wrote:
>
>What wear are you seeing on rings apart from lowering off top anchors?

Bugger all, but I am trying to think in multiple decades.

First lets look at a short term issue: what do we do with a ring that's got a big groove in it from lowering off (assume it's been countersunk so we can't just twist it with a crowbar)? Apart from drilling around it to excavate and then patching the hole I don't know what.

I'm not trying to make a big statement such as " I am against ring bolts". I'm just saying that I am reluctant to place them and one of the reasons is that I'm concerned about the damage caused when ringbolts need replacing and that is a valid reason for people to place bolts that require hangers (fixed or otherwise).

If you want me point out the bolts that are being worn, you're missing the point. I want to know how worn ring bolts can be replaced without massive rock damage. That's the heart of the issue

BoaredOfTheRings

27-Apr-2006
10:41:36 PM

On 27/04/2006 kieranl wrote:
>Bugger all, but I am trying to think in multiple decades.

I dont think you have to worry about decades as the glue doesn't last that long (Hilti only guarantee there glues for 10 years, assuming the glue is mixed correctly, hole drilled and cleaned to spec and bolt placed correctly).

Hilti actually run a course in the placement of bolts, I wonder how many people placing glue ins out there have attended it.

Most of the glue ins removed recently at Arapiles were surprising easy to remove, a simple twist with a bar to break the bond and pulled out with fingers. (makes you wonder what alot of them out there are like, maybe the pegs of the new millemiun?)

I just hope that there is someone around who is dedicated enough to replace all the glue ins when they start failing.

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