General Climbing Discussion

Author	Araps Rebolting / Kachoong Retrobolted!
rodw 24-Dec-2005 2:07:48 PM	"Or is that what gym bunny weekenders demand of this "sport"." Oh sorry bored I didn't realise you were treating all climbers as equal, I suppose your right, to be relevant, we should all move closer to araps and never touch plastic again.... I'm just saying keep it simple, if a piton falls out, which is essentially an old school bolt anyway, replace it with something that will always work, not something substandard that'll need replacing again in a few years....
Jonesy 24-Dec-2005 8:38:14 PM	On 24/12/2005 shaggy wrote: >Julian, there is no need to patronise me, I understood exactly what Chris >was saying. I am just sick of people concidering 'bold' being a 'finer' style, and >that the 'English' style of climbing greatly under equiped routes is somehow >a greater form of climbing. Shaggy, I equated it to an English style route because the majority of times I've been meters above a body-weight peg have been in the UK, and I thought about that when someone had previously asked about what to do if the peg rips. I'd go back and climb it without the bit of gear, simple. In Oz it seems like we're not getting the chance to decide after the fact of the peg ripping (due to the pre-emptive ringbolting of afforementioned route) so I quite reasonably called on the historical precedent of what occurs on Blighty. Have you been? You should, a great experience and quite a cool scene. Just out of interest.... you don't happen to have a big red sports car that you race against Rod W in? Hmmmm
spicelab 24-Dec-2005 10:48:37 PM	On 24/12/2005 BoaredOfTheRings wrote: Why does it have to be safe, it's bloody Rock Climbing!!!! Definition of rockclimbing: Climbing on bits of rock. Now, how does one justify the logical slide to arrive at 'Rockclimbing should be safe'? This simply does not follow from the original definition.
Mike Graham 29-Dec-2005 1:41:44 PM	It’s good to read such level headed posts. Having spent a lot of time in your area a long time ago its good to see you still respect what has been done before. Two close friends of mine were listed in this thread. Both Mark and Tobin should be remembered by keeping their original ascents intact. Respect like this doesn’t hinder progress. I invite you all to witness what happens when things get out of control regarding retrobolting. This forum link below is basically centered around Yosemite but the problem is world wide. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=128775&f=0&b=0 Cheers, Mike Graham
IdratherbeclimbingM9 29-Dec-2005 4:13:58 PM	I waded through that link. Some interesting stuff in there about style and ethics but the point that grabbed me most was in the context of the 'slippery slope' of peoples evolving attitudes and actions. ~> The bottom line was that they were arguing about the 3rd or 4th (!!!) retrobolt under the guise of a free line being established over the top of an aid line.
Mike Graham 29-Dec-2005 5:45:00 PM	It is impressive to actually wade through all that ink in that Supertopo post. The example is perhaps more for how emotional this can get. Perhaps a better read on retrobolting is the following. Tom Higgins finial post is strong. http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=113990#msg116308 and so on… http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=125183#msg125183 hard to get through but some of it is worth it. Good luck
estherrenita_ 30-Dec-2005 10:03:01 AM	On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote: >It's not about safety, it's about style. ahhh_ this is hot. lets bring aesthetics into climbing. That's just what's happening >here, those routes were intended to be climbed in their original form. >I think that should be respected and preserved. could it be a question of attempting to ask the author of their opinion ? i realize that this is not always possible , but if the establisher is still existent _surely they should be contacted ??
ryan07 30-Dec-2005 9:00:19 PM	If your onsighting mind arthritis your obviously tough, in this case you should be used to seeing ring bolts around the place, many routes of this grade are completely ring bolted. Why replace a peg with a piece of fixed gear that is going to be as dubious as the one before it. I'd want to clip a ring over a rusted peg any day. Maybe its just me
ryan07 30-Dec-2005 9:21:16 PM	On 24/12/2005 spicelab wrote: >On 24/12/2005 BoaredOfTheRings wrote: > >Why does it have to be safe, it's bloody Rock Climbing!!!! > >Definition of rockclimbing: Climbing on bits of rock. > >Now, how does one justify the logical slide to arrive at 'Rockclimbing >should be safe'? Dont know about the rest of you but im quite a fan of climbing being safe, I tend to differentiate climbing from the rest of the "adrenaline junkie" "dangerous sports" because it involves some intelligence, thinking and thoughtful movement, not just looking 'cool' and 'daring'. If it wasn't 'meant to be safe' why would anyone do it? It is not rational to want to do something that could potentially kill you without making it as safe as possible. Seems to me like the testosterone is flowing in this thread. Nice work "tough guys" your 'cool'. Keep living 'life on the edge' see how long you last before natural selection kicks in. If it wasn't for people like Neil Monteith and Safer Cliffs organisations guaranteed there would be more deaths in our beloved sport. Death aint cool.
Dave C 30-Dec-2005 10:42:25 PM	On 30/12/2005 ryan07 wrote: >Dont know about the rest of you but im quite a fan of climbing being safe, If it wasn't 'meant to be safe' why would anyone do it? It is not rational to want to do something that could potentially kill you without making it as safe as possible. The reason many people climb is BECAUSE there is an element of danger. If you want to be nice and safe then stick to the plastic stuff indoors or go and live near Nowra or some sport-climbing area. As to your ideas of what is rational, are you for real? I'm afraid if you were even remotely correct we'd all be living in caves and grunting a lot. Taking risks is entirely rational, always has been, always will be. Seems to me like the testosterone is flowing in this thread. Nice work "tough guys" your 'cool'. Keep living 'life on the edge' see how long you last before natural selection kicks in. More rubbish. I have serious concerns about the future of climbing with this kind of sh*te being spouted. I like a good clip-up as much as anyone at times but if that was all that climbing was about it would become very boring very quickly. Oh yes, I think you'll find quite a few of the people on here have been climbing for quite a long time and are still around. With your attitude I suspect you won't last as long as they have in this game. If it wasn't for people like Neil Monteith and Safer Cliffs organisations guaranteed there would be more deaths in our beloved sport. What the hell is the relevance of this? I don't think anyone on here is knocking Neil's re-bolting (I certainly wouldn't), Jonesey simply stated that routes should not be altered/retro-bolted without a little thought and consultation, particularly at a generally 'trad' crag like Arapiles. Death aint cool.. ..but it is inevitable! I would rather risk it doing something that is challenging and enjoyable than live in the kind of 'safe' and anaesthetised world you seem to want.
tmarsh 31-Dec-2005 10:52:38 AM	On 30/12/2005 Stuck in UK wrote: >What the hell is the relevance of this? I don't think anyone on here is >knocking Neil's re-bolting (I certainly wouldn't), Jonesey simply stated >that routes should not be altered/retro-bolted without a little thought >and consultation, particularly at a generally 'trad' crag like Arapiles. Maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't we debating the replacement of shitty fixed gear on a route that comtains only fixed gear? Mind Arthritis is to all intents and purposes a sport route. 3 bolts and 2 pins. Or am I mistaken on this? I would be very suprised if Chris Shepherd placed pins in this route to add danger or to preserve boldness. I would imagine the decision to place them had far more to do with expediency and speed of equipping the route. Expediency - and its allies of cheapness, lack of foresight, and ignorance - are not good reasons, in my view, for granting heritage states to fixed protection on a climb. But then again, my view has always been that all fixed protection is regrettable and is axiomatically damaging to the environment. If you are going to damage the environment at all, then at least make sure that the fixed gear you place is durable and safe. Blobs of rusty shit stuck to cliffs fulfill none of the purposes that fixed gear should fulfill. To venerate it on the basis that it was placed umpteen years ago back when men were 'ard is nonsense: what is our manky crap now was their state of the art then. People used the gear that was available and cheap in order to make a route that did not rely on natural gear. There is different and in many cases better gear available today.
Jonesy 31-Dec-2005 4:40:44 PM	On 31/12/2005 tmarsh wrote: >Maybe I'm missing something here, but aren't we debating the replacement >of shitty fixed gear on a route that comtains only fixed gear? Mind Arthritis >is to all intents and purposes a sport route. 3 bolts and 2 pins. Or am >I mistaken on this? Yep you are missing something - big time. Araplies is not a sport crag. Its proud history and heritage should be preserved for future generations to appreciate. >I would be very suprised if Chris Shepherd placed pins in this route to >add danger or to preserve boldness. I would imagine the decision to place >them had far more to do with expediency and speed of equipping the route. >Expediency - and its allies of cheapness, lack of foresight, and ignorance >- are not good reasons, in my view, for granting heritage states to fixed >protection on a climb. Do you know Chris Shepard? Have you talked to him about the route? Have you seen the wicked grin and glint in his eye when he asked you about the peg? That piece of gear was placed intentionally and with design. It was NOT intended to be a bolt and should not have been replaced with one. It is a disgrace. These routes are something so much more than just another numbered tick. Please tread carefully on them and look a little deeper at your own motivations for climbing and indeed rebolting. I made my thoughts on this very clear in an earlier post. More to the point - Chris Shepard is readily contactable - did anyone ask him if he'd mind having his route changed? Every time I've rebolted a route I've exercised the courtesy of writing to or calling the first ascensionist and asking their permission. I just think its polite.... is that anywhere in the VCC or Safe Cliffs bolting guidelines? I sincerely hope that someone will do the same if they ever want to re-equip one of my routes. > Blobs of rusty shit stuck to cliffs fulfill none of the purposes that fixed gear should fulfill. >To venerate it on the basis that it was placed umpteen years ago back >when men were 'ard is nonsense: what is our manky crap now was their state >of the art then. Bullshit. There's heaps of scope for safe bolted sport routes, just as much as for bold routes and for both the role of fixed gear is not just to provide protection. What about Claw's seatbelt? Visionary. You can't grab it because it just extends, but if you fall... the ratchet locks and you'd be caught. The list is endless... climbing the runout hook bolted slabs in the valley and doing up rusted quarter inchers with your fingers. Placing pegs in grit and banging them in with the palm of your hand. These are defining moments. Am I the only one who thinks these experiences are fantastic? Time for some bluntness. Great routes should not be soiled by a line of glinting rings cleaved into them by people lacking the vision and courage to approach them with nostrils flaring and hearts in mouths.
tmarsh 31-Dec-2005 5:48:16 PM	On 31/12/2005 Jonesy wrote: >Yep you are missing something - big time. Araplies is not a sport crag. > Its proud history and heritage should be preserved for future generations >to appreciate. OK, so comprehension isn't your strong point. I never suggested that Araps *was* a sport crag. Nevertheless it does contain *some* sport routes. In my opening paragraph I asked whether or not Mind Arthritis was effectively one of them. >Do you know Chris Shepard? Yes. I even know how to spell his surname. S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D. >Have you talked to him about the route? No >Have >you seen the wicked grin and glint in his eye when he asked you about the >peg? That piece of gear was placed intentionally and with design. OK - this is more helpful. The answer to my original question would seem to be 'no. despite the fact that it contains only fixed gear, it is a bold, adventurous route, not a sport route'. >More to the point - Chris Shepard is readily contactable - did anyone >ask him if he'd mind having his route changed? Every time I've rebolted >a route I've exercised the courtesy of writing to or calling the first >ascensionist and asking their permission. Can't argue with that. And I've always made sure of doing it in my limited rebolting career. >Bullshit. There's heaps of scope for safe bolted sport routes, just as >much as for bold routes and for both the role of fixed gear is not just >to provide protection. [snip] These are defining moments. What is the role of fixed gear if not to provide protection? Seriously - what is it for if not for arresting falls? My own view is stated in my previous post: if you're going to leave stuff in a cliff on a permanent basis, make sure it is safe and durable. Your reference to having to hand tighten 1/4 bolts in Yosemite is a good example. These bolts were placed because the FA was hand drilling in granite and that was the best option that could be come up with given the available technology. Hand placing pins on grit edges is in a whole 'nuther category. These aren't permanent placements (correct me if I'm wrong), but are marginal pieces of pro placed for the ascent and removed after. A good example would be some of Julian's routes. Bold, committing climbing, on very well-placed ring bolts. The character of the route is influenced by the spacing of the bolts, but the placement itself is durable. >Time for some bluntness. Great routes should not be soiled by a line >of glinting rings cleaved into them by people lacking the vision and courage >to approach them with nostrils flaring and hearts in mouths. If the intention of the FA was to create a bold testpiece, then I won't take issue with you. If that was Chris' intention in putting up MA, then I agree that any 'route maintenance' should retain the original character of the route. My issue is with the retention of gear on the pretext of being a 'hanging museum'. In my view, it's simply not a valid reason to leave rusty metal in a cliff. Fixed gear is a necessary evil and should be limited to that which is necessary.
Dave C 31-Dec-2005 6:32:37 PM	In reply to tmarsh: Tim, my issue is with the attitude of people like ryan07 who think that all climbing should be safe and anything else is irrational. It worries me that climbers who learn on indoor walls somehow think that all climbing should be homogenised and safe for their benefit. As I pointed out above, I have no issue in principle with the work that people like Neil are doing to replace manky old fixed gear in a sensible manner although I do think that if you are replacing pegs with bolts then contacting the original ascentionist would be good form. Basically, like Jonesy, I would like to see a more balanced approach to re-gearing of old routes rather than just turning everything into a modern sport-climb. I was around when Chris Shepherd (note correct spelling btw) did Mind Arthritis and I can assure you, the peg was intended to make things more 'interesting.' If people can't accept the basic challenge set by the FA then just move on and do something else.
Jonesy 31-Dec-2005 7:04:43 PM	On 31/12/2005 tmarsh wrote: >OK . , so comprehension isn't your strong point. Oooh now them's fightin words... maybe I didn't pay quite enough attention to your original post, or could it be that I was digesting an article, marking papers and writing a thesis at the same time as banging out a quick reply? > I never suggested that Araps *was* a sport crag. Nevertheless it does contain *some* > sport routes. In my opening paragraph I asked whether or not Mind Arthritis was > effectively one of them. Actually you kind of stated that it was a sport route and challenged someone to correct you. Being in bed with all the blokes who want to grid bolt the crag under the pretext of safety doesn't strengthen your position. >>Do you know Chris Shepard? > >Yes. I even know how to spell his surname. S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D. > I've been tempted to correct the odd spelling mistake in some of my replies too. But then I realised I was just nit picking and should actually be rethinking my argument and coming up with some decent points instead of going for the cheap shots. Never had the audacity to actually post it. Your middle name isn't P-E-T-T-Y is it? >A good example would be some of Julian's routes. Bold, committing climbing, >on very well-placed ring bolts. The character of the route is influenced >by the spacing of the bolts, but the placement itself is durable. Dragging Jules into this isn't gonna help you either. We aren't talking about establishing new routes, we are talking about meddling with old ones. Care to add comment Jules? Perhaps they'd like directions to Orca so they can go and install 4 rings and a lower-off. >If the intention of the FA was to create a bold testpiece, then I won't >take issue with you. If that was Chris' intention in putting up MA, then >I agree that any 'route maintenance' should retain the original character >of the route. Good so we agree then. >My issue is with the retention of gear on the pretext of >being a 'hanging museum'. In my view, it's simply not a valid reason >to leave rusty metal in a cliff. In the specific example of mind arthritis, an acceptable level of safety could easily have been achieved by replacing all the old bolts with new "modern" bolts, whilst leaving in the pin to retain the character and the sporting nature. Only the illusion of safety would be compromised, in reality a 10 m fall into space is not going to kill you. Right at the very start of this we were essentially talking about the difference between rebolting and re-equipping. It seems to be general consensus and a quite reasonable proposition that bolts intended as protection should be reliable in nature. However in the case of old/bold routes or former aid routes that have been freed (ie aftermath & procul) this is obviously huge grey area (hence the debate). If you accept that last statement, then a large percentage of routes at Araps should also be considered "grey" and therefore worthy of preservation or at the very least debate prior to re-equipping. BTW chatting with a bunch of guys who all argee with you isn't debate. In such a small and cool climbing community as that in Australia it would be nice if we could tackle these difficult issues whilst avoiding the nastiness and politics so evident in other countries a la Mike's post. The whole idea of this post was to try to prevent more of these classic routes from being brought down to a completely homogenized level of safety and to preserve some sense of history, while at the same time encouraging and applauding some of the excellent re-equipping that's taking place. Perhaps my opinion is tainted by the sinking feeling of going back to a route established ground up, onsight and solo only to see flakes pried off with a crowbar and a line of shiny bolts smack up the middle. >Fixed gear is a necessary evil and should be limited to that which is necessary. Again, in the case of mind arthritis, all the equipment "necessary" to climb the route was there. Perhaps it was just that the rebolters were the missing the two neccessary components required to climb it.
tmarsh 31-Dec-2005 8:04:31 PM	On 31/12/2005 Jonesy wrote: >Oooh now them's fightin words... What with you being so moderate up to this point I can clearly see my mistake. >Being in bed with all the blokes who want to grid bolt >the crag under the pretext of safety doesn't strengthen your position. If you only understand one thing in my posts, let it be this: I am not in favour of grid bolting crags into submission, only ensuring that what fixed gear is there is good fixed gear. >>>Do you know Chris Shepard? >>Yes. I even know how to spell his surname. S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D. [snip] > Your middle name isn't P-E-T-T-Y is it? Toss off patronising replies and you get petty ones back over the net. >Dragging Jules into this isn't gonna help you either. We aren't talking >about establishing new routes, we are talking about meddling with old ones. I'm not really sure what you're talking about. I'm talking about the concept of bolt bolted routes with good gear on them. Something I would have through was quite relevant to this discussion. >>If that was Chris' intention in putting up MA, then >>I agree that any 'route maintenance' should retain the original character >>of the route. > >Good so we agree then. Yep. the only thing I specifically disagree with you on is the idea that crap gear should be left to litter cliffs in some kind of 'hanging museum' (your term, not mine). >The whole >idea of this post was to try to prevent more of these classic routes from >being brought down to a completely homogenized level of safety and to preserve >some sense of history, while at the same time encouraging and applauding >some of the excellent re-equipping that's taking place. There are a whole heap of routes I know I will never climb coz I simply don't have the bottle to do them. And the thing is, I wouldn't want to see those climbs retroed - doing so would destroy the very reason why I would aspire to climb them in the first place. It would be like bragging that you'd onsighted Bad Cheques - on a toprope. I know there are people who want everything to be a clip-up. Don't lump me in with them. tim
Jonesy 31-Dec-2005 9:48:50 PM	On 31/12/2005 tmarsh wrote: >What with you being so moderate up to this point I can clearly see my >mistake. It's an emotive topic. Moderation has never been my strong point. > I am not >in favour of grid bolting crags into submission, only ensuring that what >fixed gear is there is good fixed gear. Excellent (with some exceptions) >>>>Do you know Chris Shepard? >>>Yes. I even know how to spell his surname. S-H-E-P-H-E-R-D. >[snip] >> Your middle name isn't P-E-T-T-Y is it? >Toss off patronising replies and you get petty ones back over the net. You started it. Ptswhh (raspberry noise) >Yep. the only thing I specifically disagree with you on is the idea that >crap gear should be left to litter cliffs in some kind of 'hanging museum' >(your term, not mine). Fair enough - it was just an idea. I like it, but you don't have to. >There are a whole heap of routes I know I will never climb coz I simply >don't have the bottle to do them. And the thing is, I wouldn't want to >see those climbs retroed - doing so would destroy the very reason why I >would aspire to climb them in the first place. Huzzah. That's a fantastic attitude. > I know there are people who want everything to be a clip-up. Don't lump me in with them. No probs - they're generally tossers and you sound like a good bloke. Have a great NYE.
Eduardo Slabofvic 2-Jan-2006 12:15:24 PM	I just love how bolting threads turn ugly. Bring it on!!!!!!!!!!
Mike Graham 2-Jan-2006 1:51:09 PM	On 31/12/2005 tmarsh wrote: > >There are a whole heap of routes I know I will never climb coz I simply >don't have the bottle to do them. And the thing is, I wouldn't want to >see those climbs retroed - doing so would destroy the very reason why I >would aspire to climb them in the first place. Tim, Probably one of the best arguments on why you shouldn’t retrobolt I have ever seen. Well put!, I also have many aspirations. I’m getting a horrid picture of these ring bolts next to cracks that once held a fixed peg. Technology has changed plenty since a lot of this “manky” stuff was put in and bolts maybe shouldn’t be the default answer for the replacement. It was you guys that came up those small “RP’s”. I even had to make a special trip to Melbourne to buy a few sets along with a couple jars of honey of course (does Rolland still keep bees?). We didn’t have “Aliens” or such back then either. I’d put money on the fact you could use them in place of any old fixed angle…Worst case you could reset the peg with a hammer. Don’t let the rust bother you, they looked rusty in the stores before they even found their home on some deserving route. Understand, if you think ring bolts won’t become the same dated article 20-30 years from now you need to broaden your vision. They will become even more of an eyesore to your kids or grandkids than pins are to you now. If you don’t care what future generations will be left with, you need to reevaluate why you climb. Ask yourself when you put up that new route, can this be done in the best style of the day? You will only fool yourself if you charge ahead and grid bolt the route. The next evolution for climbing will be to remove bolts from routes returning them to respectable standards. An inevitable contrast to today’s adding of bolts, bringing a climb down to a mainstream playground. An embarrassing thought to have one’s first ascent done in better style, by someone else. In this wonderful world of change it is only a matter of time. Mike Graham
ryan07 3-Jan-2006 11:38:28 AM	I don't think that all climbing should be safe, i believe that fixed gear should be exactly that 'fixed' not something that might only 'hold body weight'. If I place the gear myself I accept the fact that it might fail but at least i can be responsible for assessing that risk. Why should people have to rely on fixed gear that is to say the least dubious. I just think if technology is there use it, thats what they were doing back in the day. I think that 'tmarsh' has it pretty much nailed. There should definitely still be bold routes out there, the problem i have is with replacement of gear that could be made safer with old technology. Maybe if fixed gear is removed from a route it should be left with the gear removed. The problem I have is with people that think climbings all about an adrenaline rush and an ego boost, sure those things come into it, but so do so many other factors.

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