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Chockstone Forum - General Discussion

General Climbing Discussion

 Page 2 of 10. Messages 1 to 20 | 21 to 40 | 41 to 60 | 61 to 80 | 81 to 100 | 101 to 120 | 121 to 140 | 141 to 160 | 161 to 180 | 181 to 194
Author
Araps Rebolting / Kachoong Retrobolted!

gordoste
21/12/2005
1:26:16 PM
On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>In the case of Mind Arthritis, there's plenty of great 26's without runout
>finishes, so maybe leave a couple of exciting ones for people who want
>to go and do them. If you've got your heart set on doing the route then
>alternatively you could top-rope the route first if you don't want to do
>the runout onsight and then go for the redpoint. Nothing wrong with that,
>we've all done it from time to time. The top bit we were talking about
>here is trivial in difficulty compared to the tasty crux below.

What's the difference between climbing something with a runout finish, and just skipping the last 3 bolts? Essentially you can make anything runout by skipping bolts.... why do we perceive skipping bolts as "stupid" and doing a runout climb as "bold"????

nmonteith
21/12/2005
1:29:01 PM
On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>As for VCC recommendations - what the hell would they know? If we wanted
>to be part of a club we'd be footy players.

So why are you bothering to bring this subject up with other climbers then? If you just want to do
whatever you want then just do it! Chockstone is just another form of 'club'.

hangdog
21/12/2005
1:34:15 PM
I know its been done to death!!
But this issue of re- bolting with "carrots" just gets me going. Do people really think that when these "carrots" were first placed that the climbers placing them had a choice with what type of bolt they would put in. Mostly they didn,t . They placed "carrots"because that was what was available at the time. Bolting with "carrots" was also a financial consideration. It was cheaper to bolt up a route with "carrots" and no hangers. These people who look back into the past with "misty eyes" don,t take into account all the other technical advances that have been made since those days.
Others have mentioned it.
But this talk of keeping the traditions alive by fumbling bolt plates on lead doesn,t make any sense to me at all. The crux of a route should never be how difficult a bolt plate is to put on.If you want an ascent in the spirit of the time wear EB's ,a Whillans Harness , Laid Rope , and waist belay whilst adjusting their head scarf.Or the depending on which glorious period you are trying to recreate. How about leopard skin tights with a pair of Fire shoes and a chalk bag you could bivy in. You will also have to get yourself a 67 Cortina just to get to the crags. (and no they were never a good car !!)
Carrots belong ,with all these other things, in the past where we can remember them fondly ( or not , if you used a Whillans !!) If you find that you are a Luddite then by all means fumble and drop some draws if it helps with the epic leads. Just remember how to tie that tape knot as you didn,t buy these things made up into sets then. You might have to cut your rope down as they were 150' long and stiff. Cut the spring off your sticht plate ( the spring never did much anyway and stops it from getting caught up in the hexes and stabbing you in the arse in chimneys) and you will have to make your own bolt plates because the usual climbing companies didn,t make them .They were unique to Australia. Yes thats right no one else used them. If it was such a great idea how come no other climbing country bothered with them .Oh no i hope that is not an Un -Australian comment.
I worked in an outdoor shop in the Bluies and a world renowned climber at the time( Ron Fawcett) came rushing in looking for bolt plates.He had just discovered the joys of "carrot" bolts. About the only thing i could understand was that he thought they were "fooked" and could he get a refund if he brought them back. "fook no" was our reply.
No one is saying that what the climbing pioneers did should be diminished but consider that at the time they were using the best technology that they could afford or get their hands on. We should do the same.

nmonteith
21/12/2005
1:34:15 PM
So Joney/Simey, can you define a set of rebolting 'rules' to go by then? How do rebolters know when a
route is of historical merit compared to hundreds of others done at the same time? Do we need to create
Senate Inquiry sort of arrangement where all re-bolting work has to be passed by distinguished board of
arm chair climbers?

Richard
21/12/2005
1:46:34 PM
On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>As for VCC recommendations - what the hell would they know? If we wanted
>to be part of a club we'd be footy players.

The VCC policy was not the policy of only club members - it was put together after wide consoltation with many active re-bolters in Victoria (including at least 1 in this forum?). Hence it forms a guide as to what the broad climbing community view as acceptable when bolting and re-bolting. If someone has strong views on how bolting is done then they should not miss the opportunities for input on that topic.

Rock climbing may not be a normal club type of activity, but any climber is affected by others who place bolts, hence they are part of a "club" or "community" even if it's not recognised as such....

Jonesy
21/12/2005
1:50:02 PM
> Do we need to create Senate Inquiry sort of arrangement where all re-bolting work has to be passed by distinguished board of arm chair climbers?

No need for that - just let Gordy decide.
Jonesy
21/12/2005
1:57:59 PM
On 21/12/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>So why are you bothering to bring this subject up with other climbers then?

So hopefully when I take my kid to the cliff in a few yrs time he can climb the route in the fashion it's author intended.

>If you just want to do whatever you want then just do it!

Thanks - I will.

Neil - you of all people should understand - you've established 100's of great routes in fine fashion all over the shop - how would you feel if in 10 yrs time those routes are considered completely unsafe or unresaonable propositions and have bolts added all over them? That's just what's happening here, those routes were intended to be climbed in their original form. I think that should be respected and preserved.

It's not about safety, it's about style.
Jonesy
21/12/2005
2:06:46 PM
On 21/12/2005 dalai wrote:
>Since climbers go to the trouble of stealing fixed hangers, how long do
>you see a box of hangers at the base of HAGF lasting?

Probably not long... but why don't we try it and see? There are still some very honest people out there if you can be bothered looking, why not write a nice little note by way of explaination and include a testicle shrinking curse should anyone dare to pinch the hangers?

On the hanger topic.... for every story you hear about big daddy Ron thinking the're a shoddy idea, there are hundreds of climbers overseas who look at their dozen RP plates remember their Oz trip with fondness. What's wrong with mixing it up a bit?
Nottobetaken
21/12/2005
2:35:47 PM
On 21/12/2005 Jonesy wrote:
>are these routes
>being retro/rebolted by someone who'd done it in it's previous form, or
>by a person who wanted to climb it but was unprepared to unless it was
>re-equipped?

Good point - but again, I think the level of 'retroing' here is minimal - rather than the opposite.

>BTW the quality of the peg on turinga didn't seem to bother Jon Muir on
>his ascent.....

Fair enough - but in this case we're talking about the replacement of 1 fixed piece that was originally placed for the purposes of a roped lead ascent. If we took the avenue of stripping fixed protection - or leaving it to rot - just because someone's now soloed the route - then that would be a tad out of order what? I'm happy to go and repeat the thing sans useless piton or bolt - but then I dribble a lot and like climbing without a rope anyway. Pity the person that doesn't and goes up there and clips the pin - only to find that it barely holds body weight... and there might be a few people that will do just that - given it's marked up as a 3 star 25 with no mention of 'chop value' in the guide whatsoever.

>Let's think outside the box
>and not go down the path of homogenisation. Open the first page of any
>guide book "climbing is an inherently dangerous activity".

Agreed - but free climbing to me is free climbing - not f---ing around with crappy bits of gear. If I wanted to do that - I'd go aid climbing.

On 21/12/2005 gordoste wrote:
>What's the difference between climbing something with a runout finish,
>and just skipping the last 3 bolts? Essentially you can make anything runout
>by skipping bolts.... why do we perceive skipping bolts as "stupid" and
>doing a runout climb as "bold"????

That doesn't even deserve a response - but go and try it. It's a fun game - but yeah - it IS pretty bloody stupid!
julian
21/12/2005
2:44:35 PM
So if I became a re-bolter, rather than a new router, would that give me license to alter somebody else’s vision to how I would like it, albeit 10 years later? I can tell you now that I would be removing bolts, not adding them, since, as I have said before, climbing is much more fun than clipping. No, of course that would be wrong. It would be inconsiderate, in the same way adding bolts is.

Why the great desire to homogenize climbing into the domain of what we consider safe? There are thousands of routes out there and, if you have the energy, thousands more not realized. If you do not like the style or nature of the route, admit it, let it go, and do something else. There is a subset of people who like the 'headiness' of climbing certain routes. That is why 'they' climb. If everybody is part of the club, why are they not consulted, or considered, when bolts are added?

If only re-bolters were consulted regarding how it should all take place, does that not skew the opinion pool a little?????

Chris, I thought you were a one time member / player for Nati? Or were you just 'experimenting'...
Jonesy
21/12/2005
3:06:38 PM
On 21/12/2005 julian wrote:
>Chris, I thought you were a one time member / player for Nati? Or were
>you just 'experimenting'...

gotta try everythin once... i was just in it for the chicks.
julian
21/12/2005
3:17:32 PM
To be a good swordsman you must practice. And where better than the Nati changing room.
gfdonc
21/12/2005
3:49:23 PM
Oh dear. Hangdog's rant, while well intentioned I'm sure, seems badly researched. Doesn't he know that EB's came out long after kernmantel ropes?

More seriously though - I placed my share of carrots in my time (but long ago). There were no such considerations in my book - the issue was more in terms of what was considered standard practice at the time. Drill hole by hand, bash carrot. Battery-powered rotary hammers were a faraway dream, and I recall reading an early article about glue in bolts in Yosemite - justified because of the freezing/thawing cycle - but a long way from becoming common practice in temperate Australia.

The clipping convenience of a carrot+keyhole hanger was always seen as a far easier alternative than placing trad gear. There was no demarcation between "sport" and "trad". Yes a fixed hanger was even better but seen as unnecessary except on very steep routes with awkward clips, and a luxury at that.

Times have change as has "common practice". That's all. Two decades hence it will have changed again, and the climbers of 2025 will pour scorn on simple fixed stainless hangers and wonder why we didn't all use kevlar/unobtainium superbolts when they started to become available. So be it.

Merry Christmas.
- Steve
Bob Saki
21/12/2005
3:56:03 PM
hypothetically what if wanted to climb a route like
oh i don't know say the Bard at araplies and I had no natural pro other than a rack full of various sized pitons and a piton hammer.

how is leading in that way viewed? cos im guessing the 2nd may have trouble getting the pitons out?

apologies if this goes a little off the topic

nmonteith
21/12/2005
4:01:14 PM
You guys DO realize there is topic all about Arapiles rebolting on the SCV forums...
http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?
Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=11&MessageID=2&Replies=101&PagePos=0&Sort=&MsgPagePos=-1#n
ewpost

rodw
21/12/2005
4:05:19 PM
Were can I get some kevlar/unobtainium superbolts, i want to start using them now...

Seriously though to avoid any problems about possible problems with rebolting in the future on any of my new routes, from now on, im going to place next to each possible good natural placement (if there isnt one Ill make one) a mild steel carrot bolt, a stainless steel carrot bolt, a normal ring, a cammo ring, U bolt and cammo U bolt, and one of those funky kevlar/unobtainium superbolts if I can get my hands on one...next to all that Ill bolt on a hanger fixed to the the wall via stainless steel wire, incase a person climbing wants to use either of the carrots and dosn't have one....Ill also bequeth in my will that any living relative use my deceased estate to peridoically replace all fixed gear with like (and add any new variations of fixed gear should be added next to the others), once they show any signs of wear.

Its a sad day when a bit of metal shoved in the rock in the dark ages is what makes the climb, rather than the climb itself, but to make everyone happy I think my model is the solution???
simey
21/12/2005
4:59:29 PM
On 21/12/2005 dalai wrote:
>The reality is a lot of tat and rusty bolts will continue to litter many cliffs around the country for those wishing to take the "Heritage Climbing Tour"

We're talking about one route at Arapiles, although it would be good to see another heritage-listed route in the lower grades... maybe Cassandra (oh that's right, that's been completely altered, despite the fact that it was never considered a dangerous route in its original state).

As for tat and rusty bolts littering the cliffs... well such impact doesn't even register in comparison to the lines of chalk up these routes.

Show a bit of lateral thinking and show a bit of respect for the past.

dalai
21/12/2005
5:09:08 PM
Simon, I am in fact supporting your view of replacing carrots with Glue in carrots for most situations. The Ringbolt is not the perfect answer to every situation.

My gripe is the reliance of tat, it's such an eyesore (chalk is also - but that's another topic that's been 'discussed' enough already) AND degrades to an unsafe state in a matter of weeks or months!

simey
21/12/2005
5:25:41 PM
On 21/12/2005 Crossdresser wrote:
>Agreed - but free climbing to me is free climbing - not f---ing around with crappy bits of gear. If I wanted to do that - I'd go aid climbing.

This sounds good in theory, but the reality is that many so called free-climbers spend more time hanging on the rope, stick-clipping bolts and/or rapping in to place gear, so I don't buy that at all.

Hanging off your arms, making decisions about your relative safety and fiddling with gear is an integral part of Arapiles climbing. Just don't destroy every ounce of that experience.

simey
21/12/2005
5:33:07 PM
On 21/12/2005 dalai wrote:
>Simon, I am in fact supporting your view of replacing carrots with Glue
>in carrots for most situations. The Ringbolt is not the perfect answer
>to every situation.

I'm not a fan of carrot bolts... I would just like to see a few (well-placed) carrots left on a couple of historic routes.

And I would like to see old aid bolts (the ones that aren't essential to staying alive) left as remnants of a bygone era.




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There are 194 messages in this topic.

 

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