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Lactic Acid Buildup

climbingjac

28-Jul-2003
11:26:00 AM

This forum topic has morphed from a diet topic to a topic on lactic acid (responsible for getting you pumped). Noone has complained yet, so I'll continue to stray off the topic. I did a lot of research about this a while back and suspect you might all find this interesting:

Taken from http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/lactic.htm :

* As we exercise pyruvate is formed

* When insufficient oxygen is available to break down the pyruvate then lactate is produced

* Lactate enters the surrounding muscle cells, tissue and blood (aka getting pumped)

* Long steady runs (or swims, or chucking laps on the climbing walls) will develop the aerobic capacity by means of capillarisation (formation of more small blood vessels, thus enhancing oxygen transport to the muscles)

* If the aerobic capacity is greater, it means there will be more oxygen available to the working muscles and this should delay the onset of lactic acid at a given work intensity (ie this delays onset of getting pumped)

Other interesting points to note include:

* Haemoglobin carries oxygen

* Take iron to boost haemoglobin

So: Jac's moral of the days is: To delay the onset of pump, you need to do a few things:

* Take iron (eg each lots of spinach!!!)

* Involve yourself in long slow exercise (eg chuck laps in the bouldering cave)

* Work on controlling your breathing whilst climbing (stabilise oxygen intake)

* Allocate one training session per week to getting pumped. Train your body to cope with it!

Hope you all find this somewhat useful...
jac

IdratherbeclimbingM9

28-Jul-2003
4:40:40 PM

Rich on 'Diet thread' said;
Lactase: An enzyme that converts lactose into glucose and galactose. It is necessary for the digestion of milk and milk products.
Lactic Acid: An acid that results from anaerobic glucose metabolism. it is present in certain foods, including certain fruits and sour milk (when milk becomes sour, this means that some of the lactose, or milk sugar, it contained has been converted into lactic acid). Synthetic lactic acid is used in food products as a flavoring and preservative

I don't understand.
Does this mean that you can 'drink' or eat lactic acid (in sour milk, certain fruits etc) and it actually add to your pump?

My simple notion is that whatever is in your stomach has a lag time till it hits your muscles, ... the GI factor??

The Blond Gecko

28-Jul-2003
6:02:19 PM

On 28/07/2003 A5iswhereitsat wrote:

>Does this mean that you can 'drink' or eat lactic acid (in sour milk,
>certain fruits etc) and it actually add to your pump?

I doubt that you'd ever have to worry about that. Under normal, aerobic circumstances (i.e. while not exercising) lactic acid is quite quickly converted to glucose by the liver.

fruityarse

28-Jul-2003
6:37:18 PM

On 28/07/2003 The Blond Gecko wrote:
>I doubt that you'd ever have to worry about that. Under normal, aerobic
>circumstances (i.e. while not exercising) lactic acid is quite quickly
>converted to glucose by the liver.

This conversion can take place even when exercising provided the exercise intensity is low enough - as it is a reversible equation.

From what I am aware, you can not eat or drink lactic acid....

Rich

29-Jul-2003
9:42:48 AM

the info was copied from here and here under lactase and lactic acid as well as a couple of other sites that had almost identical info . Make your own judgements.. :)

Fi

30-Jul-2003
7:01:45 PM

RE: Lactic acid in relation to climbing (and physical activity in general)...

During the initial stages of exercise at high intensity (80-100%), the energy sources at the muscle site are used (Creatine Phosphate, or CP). This can only last to about 10seconds before the CP stores at the muscle are depleted. If this intensity is kept up, the body switches energy systems (to the Lactic Acid system, or LA) to find alternate sources. This lasts between 10 seconds to two to three minutes, depending on the climber's ability to tolerate Lactic Acid. The products of this are ATP (energy), Pyruvic Acid and Lactic Acid. If the climber was to keep climbing at this intensity, the Pyruvic acid and Lactic acid would build up, resulting in blood pooling at the exercising muscle site. This is where cramp and fatigue set in. For the body to keep going, it must drop intensity (to between 50-70%) and the Aerobic system takes over. Here the byproducts are 38 units of ATP, Pyruvic acid and water (which are both expelled form the body as sweat). Pyruvic acid and lactic acid are toxic in high quantities, which is why it is sweated out, and lactic acid can be broken down by oxygen (in the aerobic system phase).

I would be looking at trying to delay the onset of 'hitting the wall' (ie. improving the time from where LA is too much and the muslces tell you to stop) by working on this energy system. Do this by trying to work at a higher intensity for longer (without completely overdoing it). As in any type of training, the best way to improve something is by working on it two to three times per week. In order to maintain levels, work on it once a week.

The Aerobic system is improved by working at a lower intensity for a longer duration of time (as Jac mentioned, laps in the cave; steady, relatively easy climbing; or swimming/cycling). Also remember to stretch, which also assists in the removal of lactic acid.

I'm not sure that Lactic Acid is responsible for causing muscles to 'swell', I can't say I've heard of that before - that should be more due to the buildup of endorphins... but muscles will definately cramp due to lactic acid build up.

There's just my 10c ...

Rich

31-Jul-2003
12:48:47 PM

surely thats worth more than 10c ;-) na good stuff Fi, interesting

fruityarse

31-Jul-2003
1:28:06 PM

As someone who has studied extensively in this area, a few topics I wanted to add my cents' worth as well:

On 30/07/2003 Fi wrote:

>The products of this are ATP (energy), Pyruvic Acid and Lactic Acid. If the climber >was to keep climbing at this intensity, the Pyruvic acid and Lactic acid would build >up, resulting in blood pooling at the exercising muscle site. This is where cramp and >fatigue set in. For the body to keep going, it must drop intensity (to between 50-70%) >and the Aerobic system takes over. Here the byproducts are 38 units of ATP, Pyruvic >acid and water (which are both expelled form the body as sweat). Pyruvic acid and >lactic acid are toxic in high quantities, which is why it is sweated out, and lactic acid >can be broken down by oxygen (in the aerobic system phase).

I seriously doubt whether pyruvic acid and lactic acid are sweated out - sweating is a form of thermoregulation, not for the body's waste materials to exit the body - otherwise we would all smell poo-ey!!!!

>I would be looking at trying to delay the onset of 'hitting the wall' (ie. improving the >time from where LA is too much and the muslces tell you to stop) by working on this >energy system.

Am going to fight you on this one - "Hitting the wall" has nothing to do with delaying LA build up whatsoever. It is related to when your body switches to oxidising fat as your primary fuel source due to depletion of your body's carbohydrate stores. This happens during exercise of longer duration (min 90 minutes and above) and of moderate to high intensity (70% and above).

>The Aerobic system is improved by working at a lower intensity for a longer duration of >time (as Jac mentioned, laps in the cave; steady, relatively easy climbing; or >swimming/cycling). Also remember to stretch, which also assists in the removal of >lactic acid.

Lactic acid which is produced in a muscle where glycogen is broken down is either: 1)transported into the bloodstream, taken up by the liver and stored as glycogen. 2) transported to surrounding muscle fibres where it can be used as a fuel to sustain further contractions. Therefore - lactate produced DURING exercise can't be responsible for soreness and stiffness AFTER exercise. Within 15min of finishing exercise, lactic acid in muscles and blood are near resting levels.

Furthermore, stretching has not been shown in research to actually do this - purely anectodal...

>I'm not sure that Lactic Acid is responsible for causing muscles to 'swell', I can't say >I've heard of that before - that should be more due to the buildup of endorphins... but >muscles will definately cramp due to lactic acid build up.

True, lactic acid does not cause muscles to swell - muscle damage is what causes muscles to swell!

As for cramping, there are many theories as to why this happens - and lactic acid build up is one of the least accepted ones. Dehydration and salt loss are more generally accepted as culprits for cramping.

Hope that does not confuse people even more...

Cheers,

Bill

Fi

31-Jul-2003
7:33:34 PM

Interesting reading Bill... Thanks for clarifying. Some points I still disagree on and re-reading what I initially wrote I can see how I may have created some confusion (sweating LA? and shows what happens when you edit and dont' re-read before posting, all on two hours sleep!). Anyway I could add more but at the risk of creating more confusion I'm going to keep quiet.

fruityarse

1-Aug-2003
12:15:04 AM

Fi,

Please fire away - after all, this is a discussion forum :)

Am intrigued to know now!!!!!!!

There are 10 messages in this topic.