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What is Sport and Trad?


hangdoggy

16-Feb-2005
9:47:15 PM

for me there is an easy distinction...
trad: always ground up placing your own gear..mainly cams, nuts etc...may have the occasional bolt
sport: either ground up or preplaced is mainly bolts and may have a occasional natural protection placement.

there are always climbs that dont fall into these definitions but as a general rule it works for me.

on a more personal note, i dont mind either sport or trad....but always ground up..i dont see the point in preplacing gear..it removes something integral to my climbing world

simey

16-Feb-2005
11:38:32 PM

It's too bad this question wasn't thrown to Gerry Narkowicz (Tassy) before he wrote those stupid articles for Rock magazine that tried to list Australia's hardest trad climbs.

Personally I feel that rockclimbing derives from mountain climbing. The object of mountain climbing is to start at the bottom and reach the top of something (they found it pretty hard to check out Everest on rappel).

Then there is style... I would argue that if free-climbing is your ideal, then every time you use the rope for direct assistance is a significant move away from that ideal.

Trad climbing generally acknowledges style throughout the attempt, not just the final ascent.

Sport climbing doesn't give a rat's arse about anything other than the final ascent.

When it comes to trad climbing, I prefer to use terms such as ground-up or yo-yo to help define such ascents. I would argue that most climbs that have been rap-inspected prior to be climbed are a giant step away from an ideal trad ascent even if they don't contain any fixed gear.


rodw

17-Feb-2005
7:36:28 AM

>When it comes to trad climbing, I prefer to use terms such as ground-up
>or yo-yo to help define such ascents. I would argue that most climbs that
>have been rap-inspected prior to be climbed are a giant step away from
>an ideal trad ascent even if they don't contain any fixed gear.

How many hard trad routes have had ground up onsight FA's? Very few I suspect. Once you get on a route, have a go and fail, even if get off pull all the gear and try again....you have effectively pre inspected the route (ie end result much the same as rap inspection) IMHO.


nmonteith

17-Feb-2005
8:50:28 AM

Some of Kevin Lindorff's hardest ascents have been ground-up. I know of at least one grade 27 'death route' at Frog that he onsighted the first ascent.

simey

17-Feb-2005
9:45:55 AM

On 17/02/2005 rodw wrote:
>How many hard trad routes have had ground up onsight FA's? Very few I suspect. Once you get on a route, have a go and fail, even if get off pull all the gear and try again....you have effectively pre inspected the route (ie end result much the same as rap inspection) IMHO.

I don't think falling off and lowering to the ground is the same as pre-inspection because you still don't know what lies above.

And I don't think it matters whether harder trad routes were onsighted, what interests me is whether the first ascenionist (or repeat ascenionist) climbed them ground-up and avoided dogging the gear in, particularly if the climb is bold or the protection is intricate. It's about maintaining a free-climbing ethic in your approach even though you have fallen.

I know this whole discussion gets murky and can seem a bit pointless. But going 'ground-up' (and lowering after you fall) on particular routes can provide the most satisfying climbing experiences of all.

PS. There is a route I established in the Gramps called Bitch City (23) where I rapped the line prior to climbing it. Given that it is slightly bold and fairly intimidating, I honestly feel that rapping the line prior to climbing it marred my ascent considerably. I took the easy way out and it is something I really regret. If I hadn't rapped it, it would probably rank as one of the routes I'd be most proud of.


hangdoggy

17-Feb-2005
10:46:36 AM

On 17/02/2005 rodw wrote:
>
>How many hard trad routes have had ground up onsight FA's? Very few I
>suspect. Once you get on a route, have a go and fail, even if get off pull
>all the gear and try again....you have effectively pre inspected the route
>(ie end result much the same as rap inspection) IMHO.

have to agree with simey here...there is a whole world of difference between falling on a route on an attempt and rap inspecting. no one said you have to onsight a climb...think of what the sport of climbing would be like if we onsighted every climb we attempted...
it would soon get pretty boring

but falling on an attempt and whether you lower or dog the move as simey states you dont know what is above you...and ethically it is a lot more stylish then to rap the route inspecting every move and nuance of the climb.

simey

17-Feb-2005
10:54:46 AM

Going back to Susan's original question...

The main problem with defining 'sport' and 'trad' is how the term 'trad' is used nowadays.

One needs to remember that before the advent of sport-climbing, no one referred to 'trad' climbing. Climbing already had aid climbing, free-climbing, bouldering, mountaineering, on-sighting, flashing, sieging, yo-yoing, top-roping, rap-inspection, rap-bolting, drilling on lead, ground-up etc, etc, etc. What does 'trad' mean in relation to all those styles?

Naturally-protected routes are better off being described as 'naturally-protected', or 'gear' routes (not trad!).

That's why that Rock article 'Australia's Hardest Trad Climbs' was such shit. It should have been titled 'Australia's Hardest Naturally-Protected Routes' with emphasis given to the most stylish ascents to date.


rodw

17-Feb-2005
11:02:50 AM

I personally dont care re-style , was really just commenting on the rap inspection thing. If you fall at the crux (which is were you'd normally fall), I doubt you'd quickly lower off without looking at the moves, maybe touching a few holds etc, hows that differnt to rap inspection.

How does viewing the route through binoculars effect style, does that blow the onsight?

Im crap at onsighting myself, Im just spliting hairs cause its a work day and Im in front of the computer

(removed)

17-Feb-2005
12:50:55 PM

Sport routes are the ones I can't remember anymore.

Ronny

17-Feb-2005
4:47:30 PM

Aren't there really two things being debated at once here?? First, there is the question of the ethical worth of different types of ascents. Secondly there is the question of when a route is called a 'sport route'.
You don't 'sport climb' a route, nor could a route be called a 'pink point' route.
The terms 'sport climb', 'trad route' and probably also 'mixed route' (in both senses) discribe something about a route that is entirely independent from how it is climbed on a particular ascent.
So on the first question...
there's really no question is there that a ground-up-onsight-gear-in-hand ascent is closer to the ideal than a pink-point-rap-inspected-brushed-ticked ascent. But its horses for courses really. Draw the line where you please - everyone else will.

On the second issue...
I think Neil's list of features sums up sport climbs pretty well, but that doesn't mean that everything else is necessarily a 'trad route'. Surely a pure 'sport climb' is just one type of route amongst (possibly) many.

James


nmonteith

17-Feb-2005
4:58:54 PM

Victoria is really quite unique in the world. We have sport routes, mixed routes and die-hard trad lines all next to each other on the same crag. In other places around the world it is either a sport crag or a trad crag. No in between.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

17-Feb-2005
6:28:26 PM

On 17/02/2005 simey wrote:
>Going back to Susan's original question...
>
>The main problem with defining 'sport' and 'trad' is how the term 'trad' is used nowadays.
>
>One needs to remember that before the advent of sport-climbing, no one referred to 'trad' climbing. Climbing already had aid climbing, free-climbing, bouldering, mountaineering, on-sighting, flashing, sieging, yo-yoing, top-roping, rap-inspection, rap-bolting, drilling on lead, ground-up etc, etc, etc.
>What does 'trad' mean in relation to all those styles?
>(snip)

Ground-up onsight ethic and ...
>how the term 'trad' is used nowadays.

To muddy the water a bit;
What if I ground-up onsight an aid line (in Aid style) ...
Is this still Trad (in todays terms)?
:P


anthonyk

17-Feb-2005
7:00:24 PM

i know this is a bit different from the current interpretation of sport and trad, but i think of the essence of a sport route is based on grade and technical difficulty, whereas the essence of a trad route is the location (and the quality of the moves applies to both). of course there's cross-over, a nice location & nice moves make a sport route better, but in the end the defining factor for a sport route is the two numerical digits imprinted after the name in the guide book. a nice trad route is better if its a grade you can be proud of, but its the route itself that is the most important thing.

i guess this is leaning towards a cragging vs adventure climbing argument, but thats the fundamental difference between sport routes and trad routes to me. short routes on natural protection and multipitch bolt-fests i'll leave as freakish anomalies.. ;) i guess the other attitude is ones approached ground-up with a general aversion to falling and the other anything goes till you can figure out the moves to get to the top, with the focus on the final product. but yes thats a more strict division, and maybe i should be using a different word than 'trad'. john middendorf corrected me whenever i used that word so i tend to call it natural climbing anyway.


IdratherbeclimbingM9

18-Feb-2005
8:36:37 AM

A well thought out reply anthonyk.
I think you have described the essence of the terms well.

climberman

18-Feb-2005
9:09:34 AM

"Victoria is really quite unique in the world. We have sport routes, mixed routes and die-hard trad lines all next to each other on the same crag. In other places around the world it is either a sport crag or a trad crag. No in between".

Except, I guess, for NSW.

18-Feb-2005
9:47:00 AM

On 18/02/2005 climberman wrote:
>"Victoria is really quite unique in the world. We have sport routes, mixed
>routes and die-hard trad lines all next to each other on the same crag.
>In other places around the world it is either a sport crag or a trad crag.
>No in between".
>
>Except, I guess, for NSW.

And Yosemite...Joshua Tree...the Verdon...the Dolomites...


nmonteith

18-Feb-2005
9:58:59 AM

Yosemite - 99% trad
Verdon - 99% sport

What i am getting at is that we have many 'mixed routes' in Victoria. We don't tend to wholesale bolt routes if there is available trad. In the USA and europe i certainly climbed many bolted cracks at sport crags! They tend to make each crag either 'sport' or 'trad' and bolt accordingly. Crags like Bundaleer have sport routes, mixed routes and run-out trad lines right next to each other. It is quite unique in my opinion.

climberman

18-Feb-2005
10:05:46 AM

What i am getting at is that we have many 'mixed routes' in Victoria. We don't tend to wholesale bolt routes if there is available trad. In the USA and europe i certainly climbed many bolted cracks at sport crags! They tend to make each crag either 'sport' or 'trad' and bolt accordingly. Crags like Bundaleer have sport routes, mixed routes and run-out trad lines right next to each other. It is quite unique in my opinion.

Sounds like half the crags in the Blueys - well, maybe not half, but heaps of.... 'specially the older crags. Have not climbed in the US or Europe.


nmonteith

18-Feb-2005
10:13:22 AM

yere - Australia is all pretty much the same with mixed routes - apart from a lot of the newer crags in NSW and QLD such as Nowra, Bowens, Celistial@G-Houses ect...
The two extremes i can think of...

Buoux (france) is full of grid bolted hand cracks.
Gritstone (UK) is full of contrived death routes with not a bolt in sight!

18-Feb-2005
10:36:57 AM

On 18/02/2005 nmonteith wrote:
>Yosemite - 99% trad

By lucky coincidence I have the Reid guide here wih me and looking at the Cookie Cliff (one of the "crack climbing crags") I see that of 55 routes, 16 are mixed or sport (30%), and thats not counting cracks with bolted belays halfway up and/or with rap stations at the top....

>Crags like Bundaleer have sport routes, mixed routes and run-out trad lines right next to each other.

Replace "Bundaleer" with any Blueys crag of similar vintage (Piddo, York, Cosmic, Narrowneck etc) and the same is true.

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