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General Climbing Discussion

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When is a project open?

mikl law

6-Nov-2004
1:36:18 AM

As usual, everyone's right.
No-one owns the rock, and placing bolts in it doesn't change that.
But it can be a bit of work to bolt and scope, and it can be a huge investment of time if you're working the route.

For instance, before I left this beautiful country I bolted a roof at Thompson's Point and worked it for 14 days (lack of skill, strength, Madrocks, and finally, low temperatures). At any time, any of the decent climbers in Sydney could have stepped in a flashed it (I even had one work it (polititely he grabed a few runners!) to show me that it wasn't that hard. If any of them had done it , it would have been a meaningless little tick, but for me it was significant. Thus I think respecting projects is more politleness than rights.

It also encourages people to put in the work, if i beleived everything I bolted or cleaned would be pinched, I wouldn't bother.


mousey

6-Nov-2004
1:54:43 AM

i dont think trad 'projects' are recognised as such by many people, if anyone, but if someine is known to be working a trad line i would like to think that common courtesy dictates patience...unless of course you were working it first! i have a particular trad line im well'n truly passionate about doing, i know id love the climb whether it was someone elses or not, but i think the FA would make it, as mikl suggest, something a bit special to me. i dont know whether its because people are actually being courteous or they just cant be bothered but developments happening all around it and theres no evidence of anyone else trying it- i really appreciate that opportunity but at the same time def. wouldnt hold it against someone if they went and did it (unless they bolt it!!)
so i dont see these thing as rules but as courtesy, which should be law but i guess it loses its value once it becomes enforced?!


Robb

8-Nov-2004
10:33:40 AM

i agree with mikl. a bit of respect and politeness isn't a bad thing. and when it's done, there'll be a new route for many to enjoy. !

gfdonc

8-Nov-2004
2:27:14 PM

On 6/11/2004 mikl law wrote:
>It also encourages people to put in the work, if i beleived everything
>I bolted or cleaned would be pinched, I wouldn't bother.

Well now you mention it, and just for the sake of stirring up trouble, you do owe me a couple Mr Law. "Nearly Frantic" (23) and "Drugs Over London" (23), both prepped, bolted and flailed at by me in the early 80s, and FA by yourself. A pity, 23 was never quite within my grasp on the lead, although possibly never closer than the present. At least I got some credit for the wire brushing work on NF ...
- Steve

Ronny

8-Nov-2004
4:05:13 PM

Playing Devil's Advocate here, but...
Really the only argument here is that ppl *deserve* something back from all the hard work they put in to bolting a route (or possibly from the vision to see it in the first place).
This reasoning only works if doing the route first, and getting naming rights, and getting your name put alongside the route counts as something. If all you are interested in is doing the route, or contributing things for others to enjoy (as you suggest Beefy), then really it shouldn't matter whether you did it first or someone else does.
Not that I think this is necessarily a problem, but i think its a necessary part of the argument. (and I think this is what Niel C is getting at.)
Really, whether naming rights etc constitutes 'something back', is where the argument must be directed, not to whether you deserve something or not(cause no one really disputes this).
(du)Ron


IdratherbeclimbingM9

8-Nov-2004
4:35:08 PM

On 8/11/2004 gfdonc wrote:
>On 6/11/2004 mikl law wrote:
>>It also encourages people to put in the work, if i beleived everything
>>I bolted or cleaned would be pinched, I wouldn't bother.
>
>Well now you mention it, and just for the sake of stirring up trouble,
>you do owe me a couple Mr Law. "Nearly Frantic" (23) and "Drugs Over London"
>(23), both prepped, bolted and flailed at by me in the early 80s, and FA
>by yourself. A pity, 23 was never quite within my grasp on the lead, although
>possibly never closer than the present. At least I got some credit for
>the wire brushing work on NF ...
>- Steve
gfdonc ... You exceeded the 4 year Mikl limit !!

The solution to this dilema (of the general thread) is fairly obvious methinks.
The persons doing the bolting should be more realistic of their climbing ability (as opposed to visionary), and bolt routes closer to their ability to climb.

This would lessen the time between the 'hard work' and the 'achievment', and minimise the possiblity of someone else pinching the route?


rodw

8-Nov-2004
5:09:50 PM

I agree you should tend to bolt within a couple grades max of your upper limit, and not hold onto projects you'll never tick. I've given away a couple of projects where my vision didnt match my actual ability..but currently have a few projects outside my ability giving me something to work for.

Gotta say if I turned up to said project and saw someone on it knowingly trying to tick it first, Id be pretty pissed ...but then again I tend to generally bolt projects at semi-secret crags so this wont happen. If I know people will respect the work I and others have done and stay off projects Ill let them know were crag is....but people with dubious ethics would never be told until all projects are done or open and the crag is public

Its not all about ego to climb something first, there are no chalk marks to follow, you dont know the grade, you have no beta, every move on a new route is an adventure into the unknown, and if someone does it first, some of that mystery/excitment is taken away.


climbau

8-Nov-2004
5:31:43 PM

On 8/11/2004 rodw wrote:
>Its not all about ego to climb something first, there are no chalk marks
>to follow, you dont know the grade, you have no beta, every move on a new
>route is an adventure into the unknown, and if someone does it first, some
>of that mystery/excitment is taken away.
Here, here. Well said Rod

gfdonc

8-Nov-2004
6:09:51 PM

On 8/11/2004 A5iswhereitsat wrote:
>gfdonc ... You exceeded the 4 year Mikl limit !!

Actually for the record NF was nicked while I was posted to Brisbane for work for a few weeks. I remember being mildly disappointed when being told the news at the airport on my return. Can't recall how long I had it open for, but think it was a few months. Again, no sour grapes on finding it was 23, although I probl'y would have got it in the end. Might even have another bash at it over summer.

DOL was a different matter, bolted it, tried it on two occasions, was close to success but never went back to finish. Call it an abandoned project.


mousey

8-Nov-2004
6:42:40 PM

what about if you bolt something that you think you'll be able to claw ya way up, then realise just how hard it is after you've bolted it, but you decide to hang on to it for a while anyway just to see how you go? and its worth mentioning that in this possible scenario the line could have been very hard work to bolt, and it is at a realtively secret crag....


rodw

8-Nov-2004
6:50:01 PM

Just to clarify, IMHO its okay to work a very hard route, but if you know you not gonna get it for several years after many tries i reckon its good form to give it away. Pertains more to public crags than at secret crags though.

mikl law

9-Nov-2004
12:20:43 AM

Apologies to Steve (gfdonc) as I certainly didn't have those ideas sorted out then.

There are lots of impressive examples of over ambitious bolting- some unsuccessful (Punks in the Gym, lotsa my routes) and some wildly successful- I think Julian Saubders bolted Narcosis at Thompson's point when he was only climbing 18, and had to wait till he was leading 30 to tick it.


mousey

9-Nov-2004
12:41:00 AM

rodw, love ya mate :P cant be toooo subtle


HM33

9-Nov-2004
2:27:22 PM

it also depends if anyone would want to climb the line..


mousey

9-Nov-2004
2:49:23 PM

haha

butter_fingers

9-Nov-2004
3:24:23 PM

Hmm... having seen VW recently complete a project after a decent number of attempts (at an above mentioned apparantly secret crag) and noticing her satisfaction, I have to agree that projects, out of due courtesy (I could go on about honour, or ethics, but I won't) should be left alone....

But there is a problem. If I have a project (which I don't because I couldn't claw my way up a ladder with jumars) how am I supposed to let people know if it's "open" or "closed" or that I've been working it for the past 4 years?

How about:

Red Tape = Closed Project

Green Tape = Open project

White tape = I give up, any one can make fun of me now

Black tape = Touch this climb and you'll die because I haven't finished cleaning it yet

Purple tape = You're welcome to try this project if I think you're attractive and you let me sleep with you...

Orange tape = I'm completely insane because I thought this line would be 23 - 25, but now that I've broken off that jug in the roof it's more like a 27 and I can't climb it yet

Shoelaces = (see orange tape)

No tape = I just free soloed this for the FA, the bolts are just to let you know where the route goes. Using them is considered cheating.

I think a system like the one I just outlined above could solve the "when is a project open" problem. But then again, having never bolted a route, I'll just stick to the establised routes until I'm invited to embarrass myself on someone else's project.


mousey

9-Nov-2004
4:23:30 PM

i would like to make some alterations to that system however...
red tape= open project

green tape = badly bolted/open project for victorians

white tape = ill pretend its open but then if someone can ever be bothered to repeat it then ill jump out and kill them for claiming the FA because"i hiked that one yonks ago, back in the lycralcad summer of '82" typofthing

i don't believe that black tape and white tape should be different. i have a dream....that one day tape will not be judge by the colour of its pigment but by the blah blah blah

purple tape = that chick at the gym last night is welcome to try this one (despite all my efforts she didnt seem to agree with rule #6)

no tape= i couldnt afford any tape when i bolted it. these climbs are distinguishablke also by the lack of glue and the need for carrying bolt plates.

orange tape= i couldnt climb it yet even when the jug was there- and it was more like 3 or 4 of them that fell off. bit like sonic the hedgehog where you can only be on a block for a second before they fall off (love you too ro :D)

black tape= see brown tape

brown tape= see dictionary

dictionary = see black tape

green & yellow stripes= i dunno be creative

definately gotta future, nice work ro!!

>until I'm invited to embarrass myself on someone else's project
good luck with that.... :P

Neil C

9-Nov-2004
7:02:15 PM

First of all I have bolted many routes. I just don't get caught up in the ego of it all. You say it doesn't matter to someone else who flashes your project and it's just another notch in their belt. What if it's below your limit and you just haven't gotten around to it. Is someone else alowed to try it and possibly get something greater from it. And genrally rod where talking quite down the track of having tried the project. If you've been on the project more than five days chances are your not going to find a secret intermediate edge in the middle of the crux. I still fail to understand the importance of gaining the first accent. How about if the bolter gets to name the route. What left other than your name in the history books is there?


rodw

9-Nov-2004
7:35:49 PM

I think it goes both ways Neil, the said bolter gotta know when to give up, but the person that wants to try the project should have the courtesy to respect the developers wishes as well.

Of course there are many instances, some quite recent, were the two parties have disagreed, but is more a measure of immaturity than a problem with the system.

Its not all about ego, its more at what drives people on. The hardest routes Ive done are ones ive put up, as Im more likely to push myself to get up them. Once done I bolt another and try that.

In the end it dosnt matter, its only a sport after all, but you would have to question who had the bigger ego problem, the original person who bolted, cleaned the route...or the person who "had" to jump on for the first send against equipers wishes???


mousey

9-Nov-2004
10:24:57 PM

Neil C im sure you're a great guy but right now rod seems to be hoggin all the common sense

There are 43 messages in this topic.